Jump to content

RAF SEAC roundels - their colour changes


DominikS

Recommended Posts

Morning All

 

I have a quick question about Royal Air Force South East Asia Command two colour roundels. 

I know that at the end of the war they were dark blue/pale blue. But, if I remember correctly, originally they were dark blue/white. If I'm correct, can anyone tell me when the white colour changed into pale blue?

I'm planning to build Weggery's "Verna June II" Spitfire Mk.Vc Trop and I'm not sure if I should paint roundels and fin flashes dark blue/white or dark blue/pale blue.

 

Thank you for any help.

 

Cheers

 

Dominik

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

28 minutes ago, DominikS said:

I'm planning to build Weggery's "Verna June II" Spitfire Mk.Vc Trop

Date?  And is there a reference photo?   IF so, you will see the difference between white and 'india white',  the pale blue was a mix. 

 

But seems the initial removal of red was wet season in 1943,  May to October.

 

This thread has some dates,  but the images have gone.    

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235000370-seac-roundels-chronology/

 

this may have some info

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234976366-india-white-seac-roundels-on-miscellaneous-types/

 

It's not to hand, but Eyes For The Phoenix 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eyes-Phoenix-Photo-reconnaissance-Operations-South-East/dp/0951989944

 

While it may sound rather limited in scope, actually  has a great deal of colour information about SEAC types, RAF and RN, including lead-lease types, mine is not to hand to check, I think it has some information of roundel changes. It is available online if you want to check, but it is a really useful reference book overall. 

 

I'll also @tonyot  as he may know,. he'd done a load of SEAC models

HTH

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the pale blue was adopted until the same time as the small roundel, so there should be no need for problems as long as you have a photo to work from.  From memory, the only Spitfire Mk.V unit in SEAC I've seen with the later roundel was 615 Sq, the last to convert to the Mk.VIII, but there are not exactly a lot of photos to work from.  This isn't to say that their earlier examples had this roundel from the start.  Certainly 607, which were re-equipped at much the same time, had the earlier large blue/white roundel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After various complaints to AHQ India from units that the blue of roundels faded into the camouflage leaving roundels that looked unhelpfully like red disks, the drive to address the problem gained momentum when the General commanding 10th US AAF was nearly shot down by US fighters when travelling in an RAF Hudson in April 1943.  The reduced size blue/white roundels were first proposed by AHQ India on 24 June and AHQ Bengal was instructed on 4 July to test them on one squadron: 28 Sq (Hurricanes) was selected.  On the basis of feedback from this trial, a revised schedule "Aircraft Identification Markings for India Command" was issued by AHQ India on 29 September 1943.  This promulgated not only the reduced size 2-colour markings but stated in a footnote that "experiment has shown that pure white is too conspicuous, therefore the colour to be used instead is that resulting from a mixture of 4 parts of white and one of blue".  This is the colour sometimes referred to as "India White".

 

The above account is precis'd from Geoff Thomas' Eyes For the Phoenix p.189 and his earlier, ground-breaking article on the subject of British camouflage and markings in the Far East in the Feb 1994 SAM.  It doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for use of the blue/white roundels by RAF aircraft in SEAC, barring those units who omitted to read the footnote and naively assumed that white actually meant white. However, although it's a while since I looked into the subject, I find it hard to believe that RAF aircraft went straight from European-style markings to "SEAC" blue/India white markings in a "big bang" on 29 Sep 1943.  (I remember spending some hours scouring Vengeance photos trying to work out which roundels were blue/white and which blue/India white.)  Still, given a choice between Geoff Thomas' research and my impressions, you would be wise to stick with Geoff.

 

Fleet Air Arm aircraft adopted the new markings on 1 August 1943, based on the original schedule proposed by AHQ India in June: the East Indies Fleet therefore did NOT (ever) adopt pale (India) blue in its markings.  I have never seen a convincing documented case of an FAA aircraft in 2-blue markings.  Artwork and transfer sheets depicting them can be ascribed to insufficient knowledge of the instructions in force at the time, particularly when those of the FAA differed from those of the RAF.

 

HTH

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

It doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for use of the blue/white roundels by RAF aircraft in SEAC,

 

1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

I find it hard to believe that RAF aircraft went straight from European-style markings to "SEAC" blue/India white markings in a "big bang" on 29 Sep 1943.

well, SEAC photos are not that common,  but there are examples

eg 

mohawk-Curtiss-P-36-A-RAF-155-Sqn-B-BS79

 

155 Sqn Mohawks at the time the standard C/C1 Type markings were converted

 

I have been hunting for Hurricane images, IIRC there is a photo of BE198, with converted roundels, with white..  I think.  I'll try to remember what book it was in.

 

I have memories of @tonyot doing models like this, the Mohawk photo is from one of his builds, this one

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235072165-az-model-curtiss-mohawk-mkiv-sqn-ldr-porky-jeffries-155-sqn-agartala-india-1943/

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, DominikS said:

Morning All

 

I have a quick question about Royal Air Force South East Asia Command two colour roundels. 

I know that at the end of the war they were dark blue/pale blue. But, if I remember correctly, originally they were dark blue/white. If I'm correct, can anyone tell me when the white colour changed into pale blue?

I'm planning to build Weggery's "Verna June II" Spitfire Mk.Vc Trop and I'm not sure if I should paint roundels and fin flashes dark blue/white or dark blue/pale blue.

 

Thank you for any help.

 

Cheers

 

Dominik

Hiya Dominic,..... I went for blue and white for both Verna Junes if that helps.

The way I see it,.... they got rid of the red from the standard roundel,..... but then had to reduce the white as the resulting area showed up too much,..... then they reduced the roundel size and late in 1944 they began to tone down the remaining white with blue,..... especially or the larger types which retained larger roundels like the Dakota and Liberator. There may have been some say about the larger blue and white roundels on these larger types looking like the RAAF roundel,.... but that is just a guess on my part.

The Fleet Air Arm in Ceylon and India never changed over to the blue and retained blue and white until the end of th war.  

Edited by tonyot
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remain unconvinced that the large roundels were ever blue, but it is difficult to be certain with the  films of the period.  They initially were just the regular roundel with extra white overpainting the red, as seen for example on Blenheims and on the Mohawks above, but later the blue expanded to reduce the visibility.  If you look at the introduction of the Spitfires - Mk.Vs had the large roundel and Mk.VIIIs the small with the blue centres.  The Mk.VIIIs arrived at the end of 1943.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I remain unconvinced that the large roundels were ever blue, 

 

OK,....

 

dakota-194-sqn.jpgburmacamp-max.jpgDakota20.jpg

RAF-PILOT-Frank-Clay-078.jpg

99-sqd-liberators-6.jpg45-squadron-mosquito.jpg

 

There were varying shades for sure,.... and white was also used,...... but no blue,...... I don`t think so.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first Dakota might be convincing except that the other appears less so, but certainly there were no silver Mosquitos in 1943.   I think that these are all later pictures rather than those from the period before the fighters etc switched to the smaller roundels.  I think you've made the case that after 1943 not all roundels were small, and I could have been a little more careful in my phrasing, but I still can't identify any photos from 1943 that do show the pale blue.  Maybe very late on in the year, just as the red centres might still have been around early, but for the majority of the year blue and white.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, DominikS said:

@Troy

I happen to have this book. Will check.

@ Tony

I think I'll go for white. 

 

Thank you Gentlemen for help.

Good luck with it mate,...... I think you`ve made the right choice with white. The original Verna June had larger roundels which were mostly blue with a small white centre and it does look nice,.... but it did not have the white fern leaf markings as far as I can tell.

 

Here are some of my Verna June 1 and 2 models;

-The first one,.... in 1/48th,....

42825248990-bdf0d6e2d5-b.jpg

43916432974-6470a74a9b-b.jpg

 

and the second one,.... with the leaf,.... in 1/72nd;

DSCF6614.jpg

42825250490-fbea0ab5cf-b.jpg

 

And some of my other SEAC models just to show the variety of roundels and how they developed, seeing as it was being discussed;

 

Buffalo-1.jpg

DSCF2265.jpg

Hurri-IIb-17-Sqn-Burma-Hasegawa-72nd-2.j

DSCF9947.jpg

Hurri-IIb-1.jpg

f2-NEW.jpg

seac-thunderbolt-4.jpg

Veneance-48th-AZ-Model.jpg

DSCF7323.jpg

DSCF7354.jpg

IMG-20200312-0001-0001-NEW.jpg

IMG-20200312-0004-NEW.jpg

DSCF0386-NEW.jpg

DSCF8409.jpg

b7-70.jpg

DSCF2407.jpg

 

And then this one shows the first and last style of roundel on Merlin engined Spitfires in SEAC,... of course by 1945 white stripes were also being applied (blue on silver aircraft);

DSCF9457-NEW.jpg

 

All the bet mate and good luck,

                                               Tony

 

 

Edited by tonyot
  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Good luck with it mate,...... I think you`ve made the right choice with white. The original Verna June had larger roundels which were mostly blue with a small white centre and it does look nice,.... but it did not have the white fern leaf markings as far as I can tell.

 

Here are some of my Verna June 1 and 2 models;

-The first one,.... in 1/48th,....

42825248990-bdf0d6e2d5-b.jpg

43916432974-6470a74a9b-b.jpg

 

and the second one,.... with the leaf,.... in 1/72nd;

DSCF6614.jpg

42825250490-fbea0ab5cf-b.jpg

 

And some of my other SEAC models just to show the variety of roundels and how they developed, seeing as it was being discussed;

 

Buffalo-1.jpg

DSCF2265.jpg

Hurri-IIb-17-Sqn-Burma-Hasegawa-72nd-2.j

DSCF9947.jpg

Hurri-IIb-1.jpg

f2-NEW.jpg

seac-thunderbolt-4.jpg

Veneance-48th-AZ-Model.jpg

DSCF7323.jpg

DSCF7354.jpg

IMG-20200312-0001-0001-NEW.jpg

IMG-20200312-0004-NEW.jpg

DSCF0386-NEW.jpg

DSCF8409.jpg

b7-70.jpg

DSCF2407.jpg

 

And then this one shows the first and last style of roundel on Merli engines Spitfires i SEAC,... of course by 1945 white stripes were also being applied (blue on silver aircraft);

DSCF9457-NEW.jpg

 

All the bet mate and good luck,

                                               Tony

 

 

What a nice collection

 

Alain

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Good luck with it mate,...... I think you`ve made the right choice with white. The original Verna June had larger roundels which were mostly blue with a small white centre and it does look nice,.... but it did not have the white fern leaf markings as far as I can tell.

 

>Snip<

 

DSCF9947.jpg

 

All the bet mate and good luck,

                                               Tony

 

Very nice and inspiring, @tonyot, thank you for sharing!

Now, what's the story with "Uncle Joseph"? Not something I'd expect to see on a WWII British aircraft... 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Fukuryu said:

 

Very nice and inspiring, @tonyot, thank you for sharing!

Now, what's the story with "Uncle Joseph"? Not something I'd expect to see on a WWII British aircraft... 

Cheers mate,.......Stalin was quite a popular figure in the UK,..... where he was nick named `Uncle Joe' by the newspapers and quite a few of the more left leaning people in society really took to this support. Quite a few aircraft were named after him,..... there was an Aussie flown Lancaster in the UK called Uncle Joe,....... you have to remember that until Germany invaded the USSR,...... the UK were all alone in their fight against the Germans,..... so Churchill, despite hating communism and not trusting or liking Stalin,.... bigged him and the Soviets up to the UK population as our `new allies' t try and boost morale.

Up until this point, the Soviets were of course allied with the Germans against the UK,..... but that was all glossed over. It was only after the war when the man in the street realised just how `suspect' the Soviets actually were,..... and remember that Churchill was ousted in favour of a Socialist government under Atlee in 1945 too,.... so there was a lot of socialist support for Stalin from the man on the street. We of course all know what the true story is now.

Edited by tonyot
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Cheers mate,.......Stalin was quite a popular figure in the UK,..... where he was nick named `Uncle Joe' by the newspapers and quite a few of the more left leaning people in society really took to this support. Quite a few aircraft were named after him,..... there was an Aussie flown Lancaster in the UK called Uncle Joe,....... you have to remember that until Germany invaded the USSR,...... the UK were all alone in their fight against the Germans,..... so Churchill, despite hating communism and not trusting or liking Stalin,.... bigged him and the Soviets up to the UK population as our `new allies' t try and boost morale.

Up until this point, the Soviets were of course allied with the Germans against the UK,..... but that was all glossed over. It was only after the war when the man in the street realised just how `suspect' the Soviets actually were,..... and remember that Churchill was ousted in favour of a Socialist government under Atlee in 1945 too,.... so there was a lot of socialist support for Stalin from the man on the street. We of course all know what the true story is now.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer with such detail, @tonyot. There go some misconceptions...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, tonyot said:

of course by 1945 white stripes were also being applied (blue on silver aircraft);

White initially, and the too much visibility problems occured with these, so they went to 'india white'  

as seen on these Hurricanes Mk.IV 

Hurricane-IV-RAF-170-Wing-dispersal-area

 

 

I think this is the same time, about long enough for the photographer to move

 

 

Hurricane-IIc-RAF-in-central-Burma-IWM-C

 

Note, the only 'match' for the plane above is LF502, a Mk.IV sent to Far East.  The slightly crude stencil of the serial likely from when Dark Earth added in theatre. 

I wonder if there are more from this photo session?   

 

Great models @tonyot, I really like the faded upperwing roundels detail  on BM913 /N of 136 Sq, flown by Eric Brown (photo is in Hurricanes Over The Arakan for anyone wondering)   where did you get the woodpecker decal?

 

cheers

T

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

White initially, and the too much visibility problems occured with these, so they went to 'india white'  

as seen on these Hurricanes Mk.IV 

Hurricane-IV-RAF-170-Wing-dispersal-area

 

 

I think this is the same time, about long enough for the photographer to move

 

 

Hurricane-IIc-RAF-in-central-Burma-IWM-C

 

Note, the only 'match' for the plane above is LF502, a Mk.IV sent to Far East.  The slightly crude stencil of the serial likely from when Dark Earth added in theatre. 

I wonder if there are more from this photo session?   

 

Great models @tonyot, I really like the faded upperwing roundels detail  on BM913 /N of 136 Sq, flown by Eric Brown (photo is in Hurricanes Over The Arakan for anyone wondering)   where did you get the woodpecker decal?

 

cheers

T

Troy,... that was only on the tactical aircraft like the Hurricane and the Thunderbolt re the India white upper stripes,...... indeed many had them deleted or made thinner too,... all for better camouflage low down and on the ground.. The Spits and other stuff retained white. 

 

Glad you like the models mate,.... cheers. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, tonyot said:

that was only on the tactical aircraft like the Hurricane and the Thunderbolt re the India white upper stripes,...... indeed many had them deleted or made thinner too,... all for better camouflage low down and on the ground.. The Spits and other stuff retained white. 

 

Now you mention it...that makes sense, I knew I'd seen later Spitfires with white bands.

 

Must have got missed in last post, where did the 136 Sq  woodpecker logo decal come from?  

 

cheers

T

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Now you mention it...that makes sense, I knew I'd seen later Spitfires with white bands.

 

Must have got missed in last post, where did the 136 Sq  woodpecker logo decal come from?  

 

cheers

T

Sorry mate I was rushing out,...... trying to type quickly,....... well the one on N, which is 1/72nd came from a Model Alliance decal sheet,....... the one on ZT-M (which is of course 258 Sqn,.... but it deffo looks like a 136 Sqn logo on the nose of the real aircraft,.... maybe an ex pilot or a robbed engine panel?,..... whatever the case,..... I wanted to replicate the Woodpeckers anyway!),..... well that is in 1/32nd and I hand painted it. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For anybody who builds SEAC aircraft,.... especially RAF Thunderbolts,..... this colour wartime film is fantastic and might throw a few misconceptions out of the window!

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060025281

 

https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=473596340071181&_rdr

 

https://www.facebook.com/BECFFESEA19371946/videos/473596340071181

 

 

 

Edited by tonyot
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...