RAF Medium Sea Grey squadron codes - does this seem right?

[WLJayne]

Hi All!

 

First a thank you to Julien and the team, we are now proud to be a a Britmodeller vendor and we'll have our own corner of the forum soon, where we'll be showing work in progress, posting updates and inviting comments and help with research.

 

Over the last few days I've been working on coming up with a colour palette that we'll be using to make decals for all our BoB era RAF fighters. To that end, I've been digging around for guidance on the correct colours. There have been lots of useful threads which have turned up invaluable information, and this is essentially just me trying to get my head around them and check whether I've grabbed the right end of the stick. Particularly when it comes to RAF Medium Sea Grey which was the colour used for squadron codes before the change to Sky in '41. According to sources like "Camouflage and Markings (No.1)" this was the Air Ministry's orders:

 

Quote

 Squadron code letters on both sides of the fuselage. These letters were to be painted in Grey.............It is interesting to note that contrary to reports of widely differing shades of Grey used for codes, the paint used was standard issue under stores reference 33B/157. Any variation in shade would only have been caused by insufficient stirring of the paint.

 

Later evidence refers to this colour as Medium Sea Grey. I managed to get hold of "British Aviation Colours of World War Two" and the paint chips at the back (which I have read while searching here are apparently as close to a gold standard as we are likely to get) list an MSG. Then there us British Standard 381C 637 Medium Sea Grey. I compared a couple of versions of this grey, bear in mind that monitor profiles may not produce an exact colour but hopefully it will illustrate the more obvious differences.

 

 

So having done that, my instinct was to try the two on the left - being the British Standard colour and the colour matched scan of the paint chip in the book. In the end my feeling was that the paint chip looked "better" against Dark Earth and Dark Green, it has more blue in the hue and I've picked up on some references to hints of blue in it while reading around. Also I had a chat to Warbird Colour, and he says that he uses a colour match of this paint chip when doing squadron codes on real aircraft restorations. So I fired up my rendering software and tried a mockup. Here it is in colour and in greyscale as would be seen in period photos.

 

 

 

Here's N3200 which seems to look very similar indeed and I suspect is based on the same chip:

 

 

Ultimately, what I'm hoping is that you very knowledgeable chaps will be able to tell me whether my deductions on this are in the right place, or whether this is off the mark. If this is going to be our palette for quite a few RAF aircraft, it pays to get it right before we progress much further! Apologies if much of this covers old ground, but it's essential for us to do our due diligence on this and both Bryan and I are learning so much as we go while designing these kits.

 

Many thanks and I hope you'll think it looks good.

 

Will.

Edited October 15, 2021 by WLJayne

[Graham Boak]

Looks good to me.

[WLJayne]

9 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Looks good to me.

Thanks Graham! Steve from Warbird Colour has very kindly offered to send me some paint chips, colour matched to original air ministry swatches in the RAF Museum archives. He also agrees that the Air Ministry MSG is a little more blue than the British Standard MSG. I'll get them properly digitized and from that I should be able to produce a CMYK colour for screen printing that has minimal if any colour drift. I'll certainly sleep easier!

[rossm]

@Nick Millman would be a good person to talk to, he has done a lot of very thorough colour research.

 

I've an idea, which you ought to check before relying on it, that BS381C is a postwar standard so may not represent the wartime colour.

[WLJayne]

7 hours ago, rossm said:

I've an idea, which you ought to check before relying on it, that BS381C is a postwar standard so may not represent the wartime colour.

That's the conclusion I have reached to. Wartime MSG doesn't appear to be the same, though close.

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, WLJayne said:

 

So having done that, my instinct was to try the two on the left - being the British Standard colour and the colour matched scan of the paint chip in the book. In the end my feeling was that the paint chip looked "better" against Dark Earth and Dark Green, it has more blue in the hue and I've picked up on some references to hints of blue in it while reading around.

A good chap to talk to, and you may wish to order some paint as well, as it is matched to the MAP chart you have, is @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies, who runs Colourcoats, who are noted as being the best matched paint for models overall.   

Certainly the only company I have seen that is an active poster on a model forum.   

 

As for Medium Sea Grey,   as I prefer acrylic (If I wanted enamel I'd just use Colourcoats)  I've been checking various paint I have, by Xtracylix, AK Interactive, various Vaellejo and Tamiya

Not been happy comparing swatches with the RAF Museum book MAP paint chip chart...

 

Anyway, as best I can make out Medium Sea Grey has a very slight purple hue, rather than blue,  or if you prefer, a purple-blue I don't have any proper colourimeter devices,   but bear in mind the paint tended to be reasonably simple pigment mixes, so that maybe just a bit of ultramarine, which is a purple-blue. 

(oddly enough my best simple tamiya mix so far involves adding white to their XF -82 Ocean Grey, which is quite blue...Ocean Grey has a subtle green hue, but I've not got it quite to match the chip, I mentions this as I have spent a lot of time doing mixes and looking at tints in greys...) 

 

Nick Millman, who is still a member here, but no longer posts, due to the hard of thinking I seem to remember, which is a great shame.  has done a lot of research on RAF colours, and has provided information for Colourcoats research,  would be a good chap to talk to,  try the contact details on here

http://www.aviationofjapan.com

 

this Life Image of a Spitfire Va of 54 Sq from June 1941 shows the Temperate Land Scheme colours very well

Spitfire in England by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Spitfire II. 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Spitfire in England. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

rare private colour shot in spring 1940

Spitfire patrol          Spring 1940. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

this is well known image of a 72 Sq Spitfire

Spitfire II        April 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

period colour is rare, these are some of the few, perhaps of use.  

 

all from here

@Etiennedup Flickr account of period colour.

 

HTH

[WLJayne]

Those are brilliant, Troy!

 

I just got the first test from Antonis where we used the Air Ministry chip MSG (or as close as we could get.) I must say, it does look pretty close to the photos you posted, what do you think?

 

I'm probably going to move this over to the profiles thread now as I think we've got some good leads on the grey.

 

Will.

Edited October 16, 2021 by WLJayne

[Fernando]

Hallo, 

 

If having to go with a commercial brand MSG, I would go with Xtracolor. I am surprised that you did not consider it among the colour samples.

 

Fernando

[Troy Smith]

7 hours ago, Fernando said:

 

If having to go with a commercial brand MSG, I would go with Xtracolor.

 

If Xtracolor are anything like Xtracrylix, in their 'matches'  then no, I wouldn't.   

 

Xtracrylix MSG is an olive grey,  MSG has subtle purple-blue to it.  I just rechecked this. 

BTW Xtracrlix Ocean Grey is a lot closer, though a bit darker.   it's not a good Ocean Grey though.

 

It was a depressing and sobering experience when I started checking Xtracrylix RAF paints against the MAP chips, as I had frequently read how good they were.  

 

If Xtracrylix are different to Xtracolor, which would seem odd as they are the same company/research,  then that's another stuff up by the Xtra folks, by this I mean the fairly common comments on here about Xtradecals "research" 

 

The only model paint I'd trust unseen is Colourcoats.   

[Fernando]

On 10/19/2021 at 7:01 AM, Troy Smith said:

 

If Xtracolor are anything like Xtracrylix, in their 'matches'  then no, I wouldn't.   

 

Hallo, Troy,

 

For some reason, MAP shades in the Xtracrylix range usually do not match those in the Xtracolor one!

 

MSG is noticeably lighter (though I fail to find that olive tint you mention). The same happens to Ocean Grey, while Dark Green lacks the Olive tint. Unfortunately, Xtracolour paints, being enamels, are not sent overseas any more.

 

But bear in mind I said "Xtracolor".

 

Regards,

 

Fernando

[DominikS]

I would also try Mr Hobby/Gunze or Mr Paint laquers. I have used Mr Hobby/Gunze MSG and it looks good, IMHO.