Zimmerit on British tanks?

[spruecutter96]

Hello, all. 

 

I've just been watching a documentary about German tank-ace Michael Wittman on Youtube. It's called "The Fate Of The Black Baron". One thing that really caught my eye occurs at 34:26. There's a quick shot of a British Cromwell Mark 3. The unusual thing about it is that it appears to have something like Zimmerit paste applied to its turret (and not applied to the main body). Also, if you look at the bottom of the turret, the paste looks like it has "bunched up" under gravity, as there is a big lump of the apparent Zimm collected at the base of the turret. 

 

I have never heard of Allied AFV's carrying this kind of application (if that is indeed what it is). 

 

Any further information will be gratefully received. 

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

[Bertie McBoatface]

 

It certainly looks like zimmerit!

[Troy Smith]

if you right click, and  select "copy video URL at present time" 

[EDIT, this sounds abrupt, I didn't know what it meant either, until I found out, it takes you to a specific time point in a youtube video, and is a neat little feature]

anyway... this takes you to 34.26

https://youtu.be/GFyKVJ_ZN-8?t=2066

note film has been reversed

 

this rang a dim bell....

 

a quick google

"cromwell tank textured rubber covering"

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/british-work-on-zimmerit/

 

"The British however did not have any Zimmerit material for testing at the time but even so conducted their own experiments into textured camouflage. One of these experiments in August 1944 involved the fitting of ribbed rubber material to the outside of the turrets of Cromwell tanks belonging to C Squadron, 2nd Northants. Yeomanry, 11th Armoured Division."

 

"Cromwell tanks of C Squadron, 2nd Northants, Yeomanry, 11th Armoured Division with rubber material glued to turret
As a camouflage, Zimmerit was drawing attention from Field Marshal Montgomery who expressed the need for improved camouflage. On the 21st February 1945 he remarked that “a satisfactory camouflage is required which will eliminate all shine and reflection from the armour plate. Some form of plaster like the German ‘ZIMMERIT’ should be produced and incorporated in the manufacture of all future tanks”. Stocks of captured German Zimmerit were not available until August 1945 though, and in the meantime further experiments included test applications were carried out. These experiments used a Ram Sexton Self Propelled Gun, a Churchill tank, a Cromwell tank, and the gun shield of a 25 pdr field gun."

 

more pics in link, and an interesting article as well.

[PDH]

There is a very interesting book on the subject British Zimmerit: Anti-Magnetic Mine and Camouflage Coatings 1944 - 1947 by Andrew Hills

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Zimmerit-Anti-Magnetic-Camouflage-Coatings/dp/1660231485/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=British+Zimmerit&qid=1633871604&sr=8-1

 

P

 

 

[spruecutter96]

Thanks for the information, folks. This concept had completely passed me by, up until this video. Rubber Zimmerit covers...who knew?

 

I read a while ago that Zimmerit was a solution to a virtually non-existent problem. According to the article, magnetic anti-tank charges applied by enemy troops were very rare indeed - this could well be the reason the German factories discontinued the practice in late 1944.   

 

It's true that the Soviet army trained dogs to crawl under German tanks, expecting to find food under the AFV's. The unfortunate animals had explosive charge strapped to their backs, which were set off by magnetic probes projecting from the top of the packs. How many dogs were using in action in this manner? Before anyone objects to talking about this subject, the Russians suffered 20 Million deaths in the Second world War. They were incredibly desperate times, often fought in conditions that would be difficult to imagine in the West. The use of dogs was a measure of the Soviet's desperation.   

 

Cheers.

 

Chris.  

Edited October 10, 2021 by spruecutter96
Amending some information.

[spruecutter96]

One aspect of the tanks-encyclopedia.com article is the suggestion that the rubber Zimmerit was applied as "camoflague". It had very little to do with that, so the words could have been better chosen, perhaps.

 

I can't help the feeling that this was a genuine waste of effort on the part of the British, particularly considering the very high quality of most German anti-tank assets during the conflict. Why climb onboard an enemy tank and attach a magnetic-bomb, when you can simply attack it from many metres away?  

 

Chris.  

[John Tapsell]

At least some (possibly all?) of the M3 CDL tanks shipped out to the Far East in 1945 were apparently covered with an anti magnetic paste. The potential threat from Japanese magnetic charges was considered serious enough for the paste to be added to the tanks. 43 RTR only got as far as India before the war ended. This image would have been taken at Lowther Castle, near Penrith (home of the CDL School).

 

[noelh]

3 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

Thanks for the information, folks. This concept had completely passed me by, up until this video. Rubber Zimmerit covers...who knew?

 

I read a while ago that Zimmerit was a solution to a virtually non-existent problem. According to the article, magnetic anti-tank charges applied by enemy troops were very rare indeed - this could well be the reason the German factories discontinued the practice in late 1944.   

 

It's true that the Soviet army trained dogs to crawl under German tanks, expecting to find food under the AFV's. The unfortunate animals had explosive charge strapped to their backs, which were set off by magnetic probes projecting from the top of the packs. How many dogs were using in action in this manner? Before anyone objects to talking about this subject, the Russians suffered 20 Million deaths in the Second world War. They were incredibly desperate times, often fought in conditions that would be difficult to imagine in the West. The use of dogs was a measure of the Soviet's desperation.   

 

Cheers.

 

Chris.  

I agree that  it was a practically  non existent problem. If the tank was close enough to  attach a magnetic  mine. The attacker  had to  have a magnetic  mine  handy. The average infantryman had no such facility. Particularly the Western allies.

 

As for the Soviet anti tank  dogs. I do  remember it being said that the experiment went wrong because the dogs  couldn't tell a T34 from a Tiger.

 

As for it being something people would object to, well millions of dead people trump a few unfortunate dogs.

[spruecutter96]

1 hour ago, noelh said:

millions of dead people trump a few unfortunate dogs.

Very much agree. I've read stories of fourteen-year-old Russian kids being used on the front-line.... the Soviets really were unbelievably desperate, particularly in the early days of the Nazi invasion.   

 

Chris. 

[noelh]

11 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

Very much agree. I've read stories of fourteen-year-old Russian kids being used on the front-line.... the Soviets really were unbelievably desperate, particularly in the early days of the Nazi invasion.   

 

Chris. 

Plus the  Nazis using fanatic  teenagers. Ask the Canadians who  came up against the Hitler  Jugend at Carenten

[spruecutter96]

Many moons ago, I had a boss who had fought through Europe as a British paratrooper. He told me that the Hitler Youth were their most-hated and feared enemies, as they would almost always fight to the death. I'm sure he saw some terrible things during the war. 

 

Chris. 

[Kingsman]

Interesting coating on the CDL.  Enlarged it looks more like mud and grass.  A little bit like the bituminous coating on the ex-German Char B at Bovington, reputed to be an early form of Zimmerit.  Japan had the Type 99 magnetic mine, which was just a blast charge.  It could thus only penetrate about 20mm of armour, but the magnets could be used to stack several together.  Two could penetrate over 30mm.  Pole charges and so-called "lunge mines" along with demolition charges were more commonly used against tanks, often suicidally.  The Japanese discovered that the open-spoked type of wheels on M4s could be jammed with various simple objects to cause a mobility kill.  They also targeted hatches as weak points with charges, hence the welding-on of mesh screens and 6" or 9" nails.  So any form of "zimmerit" would have been of very limited use.

 

The German army had magnetic shaped charges: think Panzerfaust warhead with magnets.  But no-one else did, so Zimmerit was a counter-measure to a largely non-existent threat.

 

The Russian experiment with dogs failed because Russian tanks were diesel-fuelled whereas German tanks were petrol.  So they smelled wrong and the dogs would instead go for their own tanks, which smelled right.  They were taught that food was to be found under tanks.  Tanks that smelled of diesel............

[John Tapsell]

4 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Interesting coating on the CDL.  Enlarged it looks more like mud and grass.

 

If I recall correctly it was called 'wood wool', which implies it may have contained a significant quantities of wood fibre/pulp added to whatever material (Bostick?) was used for the paste.