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How do you paint desert tank tracks?


Doggy

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Hi all.

 

For painting muddy tank tracks I follow Andy's hobby headquarters guide but I can't find any desert guides on YouTube.

 

I imagine the sand would be pretty abrasive and the tracks would be a bit dusty.

 

Any tips for a struggling modeller?

 

Thanks.

 

 

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As no-one else had chipped in... Hi again, Doggy! 🙂

 

If you want a video solution, there are two possibles which come to mind. Martin Kovac, obviously, may give you some ideas. Another is Frédéric Mertès. His video is about dry summer tracks in Kursk, but what inspired me was his way of reversing the painting process. Rather than following what happens to tracks, he flipped that around and followed what we actually see. You'll see what I mean when you watch it. He no longer makes videos, which is a pity. Mike Rinaldi hasn't done much about tracks yet, just this one so far, but there will be more soon, I expect. Some other YT modellers seem to copy a default generic style without much thought.

 

Tracks are not very easy to get right, I find. There is a wide variety of shape, material, and contact points which all alter how they wear and weather. So what's right for IS-1 is wrong for a Challenger 2. And the material and construction of the model's tracks can make a difference, too.

 

One of the first things to decide is what colour they need to be. Should they really be rusty? Not always. Would desert tracks ever rust? I'm still doubtful about that, but some deserts do have periods of high humidity. I like to find colour photos of AFVs in deserts, especially if they are in the area which I want to represent, and look at how they wear and pick up dust. Relatively modern vehicles are OK as long as the track type is not all that different. The Weathering magazine can be a good resource for techniques and, sometimes, a few ref photos. See also the special focus books, such as How to Paint IDF Tanks (pretty good) or AK Learning Series: Tracks and Wheels.

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Once again I'm indebted to you.

I know night shift, he's excellent. I'll spend today watching the other videos you mentioned.

 

As for rusting in the desert, I agree with you, not a lot of water. 

 

Some rusty tanks look amazing but from what I've read the average life of a tank on the eastern front was 2 months. 

 

Rusting takes years, I've got an old car that was dented about 3 years ago and it has barely rusted.

You often see works van with dents and rust streaks but these take years to develop.

 

Plasmo is amazing but I feel he over does his models sometimes.

 

Thanks again.

 

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I think that one of the problems which makes this hobby more difficult to learn (it certainly did for me) is how it's often presented in a very procedural way. Whether it's watching a build video or reading a magazine, it's basically "first I did this, then I did that, and then I did this". That tells us what but not so much about how and the all-important why is forgotten entirely.

 

This leaves us thinking that, if we're building the same model, we should just follow what the content creator or author did and expect the same result. But will it all work for us? And who says that it's even right? As insipration, it's useful; but as a learning resource, it's pretty poor.

 

Tracks are a good example. We could sit at our desks with a set of tracks wondering how we should paint them -- and I do! Wrong question, though. The first question is what we think they should look like. How we get them there is secondary and open to our own preferences, as there's almost always more than one way to do anything.

 

Technique will depend not only on what the real tracks are like but on what type (modelling material, construction) of track you're making. For example, people say that injection-molded independent links with delicate nubs or pins could be damaged by a spirit-based wash as it wicks around the pins. That could well be true, so I stick with water-based washes and pigment mixes on delicate tracks.

 

It's perfectly possible to make convincing dusty tracks -- if they are all-metal without rubber pads -- with little more than a base colour (maybe dark red-brown, black-grey, perhaps even a dusty colour) followed by one or two pigment washes (not too much fixer because you will want to wipe most of it away from high spots) and a dry-brush or metallic pigment where the heaviest wear occurs. I suggest that you don't over-clean the contact points with road wheels, though; that can look as though the wheels have acted like magical lint rollers!

Edited by Ade H
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8 hours ago, Ade H said:

Should they really be rusty?

No,  Tank track don't rust, they are hardened manganese steel.  they are a naturally brown colour though.  Most tank modellers live in a fantasy world for this detail.

longer discussion

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Doggy said:

Some rusty tanks look amazing but from what I've read the average life of a tank on the eastern front was 2 months. 

 

armour plates doesn't rust either.

Fact is, a lot of armour models are basically offshoots of 'Spanish school'  paint and weathering,  very impressive results,  not related to reality. 

 

12 hours ago, Doggy said:

I imagine the sand would be pretty abrasive and the tracks would be a bit dusty.

 

Any tips for a struggling modeller?

pigments. I know you had problems,  I use pastel chalk,  a cheap set of earth colour via ebay,  ground with a fine sanding pad to get a very fine powder, mix of colour in a palette, applied with a old brush dipped in lighter fuel.  excess can be removed with lighter fuel wetted brush,  but still leaves a deposit,  the lighter fuel evaporates fast, but at first is dark, so go easy in adding dust at first.  

 

this is how the 'dust' looks  on a model, aiming for dusty vehicles in the summer, with remains of dried mud,  

51343041782_33c2d14540_h.jpg

50620994 by losethekibble, on Flickr 

 

51335926297_8b1629be17_h.jpg50620990 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

This is the first time I tried doing this, the kits did get some dark oil paint washes, again, thinned with lighter fuel, and then the pastel chalk dust.  

 

Photos on a 15 year old basic 'point and shoot' digital camera as well.  

 

Remember deserts get cold at night, and water does condense out, so vehicles can get damp and dust will stick.   There must be a fair few Signal Afrika Korps propaganda colour shots about, and lots of modern armour. Think where dust settles, where it gets worn off.

1 hour ago, Doggy said:

One other thing, there's lots of techniques that I feel are too advanced for me at the moment, I don't know how these guys do it.

 

the answer to both is practice,  get a wreck,  or if you don't have a spare old one, I used some built tank kits i got from jumble sale, but a suitable toy from a pound shop or charity  could used, and just practice,  try different materials,  make a mess,, bear in mind you may need to wait for things to dry,    this is why I have the SIG line about what works for you,  if you like the result then it's the 'right one' 

It's also well worth posting up photos of your work, as it gives you a bit of remove from it, and you can see it in a common context.

 

And, regarding youtube vids, and techniques and finishes,  how many armour videos just end up recreating other models, rusty tracks with shiny worn steel on the highlights, rusty armour plate etc.  what would be a newish tank looking like it's been left outside to rot near the sea for 10 years....  very very pretty, very artistic,  but in no way representing how a vehicle would really appear.  

 

A good chap on how armour really behaves is @Das Abteilung

 

HTH

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23 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

...how many armour videos just end up recreating other models...

My point exactly. They are the ones who have forgotten to begin with "why". I bang on about that quite a lot, but it's because it matters so much.

  

23 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

The answer to both is practice...

Very important, but it's difficult to practice anything without first knowing how it was done; so practice is predicated on information.

Edited by Ade H
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10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

No,  Tank track don't rust, they are hardened manganese steel.  they are a naturally brown colour though.  Most tank modellers live in a fantasy world for this detail.

longer discussion

 

 

 

armour plates doesn't rust either.

Fact is, a lot of armour models are basically offshoots of 'Spanish school'  paint and weathering,  very impressive results,  not related to reality. 

 

pigments. I know you had problems,  I use pastel chalk,  a cheap set of earth colour via ebay,  ground with a fine sanding pad to get a very fine powder, mix of colour in a palette, applied with a old brush dipped in lighter fuel.  excess can be removed with lighter fuel wetted brush,  but still leaves a deposit,  the lighter fuel evaporates fast, but at first is dark, so go easy in adding dust at first.  

 

this is how the 'dust' looks  on a model, aiming for dusty vehicles in the summer, with remains of dried mud,  

51343041782_33c2d14540_h.jpg

50620994 by losethekibble, on Flickr 

 

51335926297_8b1629be17_h.jpg50620990 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

This is the first time I tried doing this, the kits did get some dark oil paint washes, again, thinned with lighter fuel, and then the pastel chalk dust.  

 

Photos on a 15 year old basic 'point and shoot' digital camera as well.  

 

Remember deserts get cold at night, and water does condense out, so vehicles can get damp and dust will stick.   There must be a fair few Signal Afrika Korps propaganda colour shots about, and lots of modern armour. Think where dust settles, where it gets worn off.

the answer to both is practice,  get a wreck,  or if you don't have a spare old one, I used some built tank kits i got from jumble sale, but a suitable toy from a pound shop or charity  could used, and just practice,  try different materials,  make a mess,, bear in mind you may need to wait for things to dry,    this is why I have the SIG line about what works for you,  if you like the result then it's the 'right one' 

It's also well worth posting up photos of your work, as it gives you a bit of remove from it, and you can see it in a common context.

 

And, regarding youtube vids, and techniques and finishes,  how many armour videos just end up recreating other models, rusty tracks with shiny worn steel on the highlights, rusty armour plate etc.  what would be a newish tank looking like it's been left outside to rot near the sea for 10 years....  very very pretty, very artistic,  but in no way representing how a vehicle would really appear.  

 

A good chap on how armour really behaves is @Das Abteilung

 

HTH

Thanks very much, I appreciate the effort in your reply.

 

I've been watching videos all day and nipping out to the shed to do little bits and pieces.

 

I started new tracks today using the mertes method, nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

I bought pastels but I also bought Vallejo pigments, I'll jump between both experimenting.

 

Thanks again.

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On 10/9/2021 at 11:05 AM, Troy Smith said:

No,  Tank track don't rust, they are hardened manganese steel.  they are a naturally brown colour though.  Most tank modellers live in a fantasy world for this detail.

longer discussion

 

 

 

armour plates doesn't rust either.

Fact is, a lot of armour models are basically offshoots of 'Spanish school'  paint and weathering,  very impressive results,  not related to reality. 

 

pigments. I know you had problems,  I use pastel chalk,  a cheap set of earth colour via ebay,  ground with a fine sanding pad to get a very fine powder, mix of colour in a palette, applied with a old brush dipped in lighter fuel.  excess can be removed with lighter fuel wetted brush,  but still leaves a deposit,  the lighter fuel evaporates fast, but at first is dark, so go easy in adding dust at first.  

 

this is how the 'dust' looks  on a model, aiming for dusty vehicles in the summer, with remains of dried mud,  

51343041782_33c2d14540_h.jpg

50620994 by losethekibble, on Flickr 

 

51335926297_8b1629be17_h.jpg50620990 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

This is the first time I tried doing this, the kits did get some dark oil paint washes, again, thinned with lighter fuel, and then the pastel chalk dust.  

 

Photos on a 15 year old basic 'point and shoot' digital camera as well.  

 

Remember deserts get cold at night, and water does condense out, so vehicles can get damp and dust will stick.   There must be a fair few Signal Afrika Korps propaganda colour shots about, and lots of modern armour. Think where dust settles, where it gets worn off.

the answer to both is practice,  get a wreck,  or if you don't have a spare old one, I used some built tank kits i got from jumble sale, but a suitable toy from a pound shop or charity  could used, and just practice,  try different materials,  make a mess,, bear in mind you may need to wait for things to dry,    this is why I have the SIG line about what works for you,  if you like the result then it's the 'right one' 

It's also well worth posting up photos of your work, as it gives you a bit of remove from it, and you can see it in a common context.

 

And, regarding youtube vids, and techniques and finishes,  how many armour videos just end up recreating other models, rusty tracks with shiny worn steel on the highlights, rusty armour plate etc.  what would be a newish tank looking like it's been left outside to rot near the sea for 10 years....  very very pretty, very artistic,  but in no way representing how a vehicle would really appear.  

 

A good chap on how armour really behaves is @Das Abteilung

 

HTH

I forgot to ask. You mentioned lighter fuel, I guess that's naphtha? I looked into it but was unsure what to buy. Some people refer to Coleman camping fuel or Zippo lighter fuel, would that do?

 

Thanks again.

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3 hours ago, Doggy said:

Zippo lighter fuel,

No idea what the other is, but zippo  type lighter fuel is what I mean, usually available in pound shops.    I use it to make washes from oil paint, or to streak neat oil paint for thick oil, and as a carrier ground pastel chalk.

 

these are the pastel chalk I have

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292704469350

s-l1600.jpg

 

by mixing different stick you get a range of colours,  I use them for aircraft exhaust deposits as well.   

Experiment, a mix of several colours gives quite a subtle effect. 

For say desert sand, the far left yellow browin but then add in some of the greys and a little of the burnt umber on the right side.  

 

These are cheap,  in the link they are £4.18 posted in the UK, not tried a higher quality,   but they seem OK. 

Use  a very fine grade of abrasive, and you get a very fine dust, and a little goes a long way.  a rougher grade maybe good for ground work.

 

HTH

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If I was considering using that stuff, I'd want to know a few things. Is it more toxic in the atmosphere than odourless enamel thinner? Because we don't always remember to wear a mask while using pigments and, trust me, you can taste your mixture after a session of speckling. Secondly, does it blend as smoothly? If I don't get good enough gradation, why would I use it? Cost alone is not a good enough reason. The rule of thumb is that blending performance is related to refinement and that in turn is related to the smell; the less the smell, the more highly refined the product, the smoother the blend. For example, Abt 502 is a little stronger than AK and does not perform quite as well with OPR.

Edited by Ade H
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18 minutes ago, Ade H said:

Is it more toxic in the atmosphere than odourless enamel thinner?

It's Light Naptha, or light petrol,   It's very very volatile, it's not plastered with health warnings, but says don't breathe the vapour.....  it's very flammable obviously,  but I only use it in tiny amounts.  

Google will turn up any health and data sheets you want.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Ade H said:

The rule of thumb is that blending performance is related to refinement

it's naptha aka light petrol,  given it's volatility,  I have assumed it to be basically Hexane,  it's a 6 carbon molecule.  Anything lighter is a gas a room temperature (eg butane, the compressed lighter gas, is carbon 4)  

as for cost? a small can for a pound is worth experimenting with.

In comparison, white spirit is cheap oily gunk, it's around carbon 15 in molecule size, eg Parrafin /Kerosene,  Petrol is around 8 carbon,  and diesel is 25-30, tar is 45-50,  they are all forms of saturated hydrocarbons.

 

Given it's volatilty, it's going to be a quite specfic 

eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha

"Types[edit]

Various qualifiers have been added to the term "naphtha" by different sources in an effort to make it more specific:

One source[12] distinguishes by boiling point:

Light naphtha is the fraction boiling between 30 °C and 90 °C and consists of molecules with 5–6 carbon atoms. Heavy naphtha boils between 90 °C and 200 °C and consists of molecules with 6–12 carbon atoms.

Another source[13] which differentiates light and heavy comments on the hydrocarbon structure, but offers a less precise dividing line:

Light [is] a mixture consisting mainly of straight-chained and cyclic aliphatic hydrocarbons having from five to six carbon atoms per molecule. Heavy [is] a mixture consisting mainly of straight-chained and cyclic aliphatic hydrocarbons having from seven to nine carbon atoms per molecule.

Both of these are useful definitions, but they are incompatible with one another and the latter does not provide for mixes containing both six and seven carbon atoms per molecule. These terms are also sufficiently broad that they are not widely useful."

 

 

23 minutes ago, Ade H said:

For example, Abt 502 is a little stronger than AK and does not perform quite as well with OPR.

I have no idea.  In suspect that an awful of  modelling products can be obtained far more cheaply when not sold in little packets and bottles for modellers. 

Note, you can of course intermix those various hydrocarbons,  to obtain different blends. 

 

One final point, I have used lighter fuel/oil paint washes straight over Vallejo, and it's has not affected the acrylic base coats,  and Vallejo is noted noted for being very durable.

When dried, and it dries fast,  I have used acrylic varnish over the dried oil wash. 

 

HTH     

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I'm not aware of any cheaper products which are still sufficiently refined for our needs. For example, I started with W+N Sans Odor, which doesn't live up to its name in comparison to AK (Ammo by Mig's equivalent may also be good) and sure enough proved to be too strong. But at around £5-6 per 100ml, I don't think that we need anything cheaper because we need so little at a time. For oils only, I can say that citrus-based thinner works OK as a very mild and economical option, but it may need a matte coat as it increases the sheen a little bit.

 

By the way, if you meant that Vallejo is not noted for being durable, that is a myth which I keep trying to puncture!

Edited by Ade H
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37 minutes ago, Ade H said:

if you meant that Vallejo is not noted for being durable, that is a myth which I keep trying to puncture!

I'd got bogged down in the above.

Correct, Vallejo is not durable, it works a lot better over a primer though, and a coat of varnish protects it well.   I like it for ease of use, and ease of clean up.

 

46 minutes ago, Ade H said:

I'm not aware of any cheaper products which are still sufficiently refined for our needs

The lighter fuel is not about cost, but volatility, I use it as it makes super thin washes and flashes off almost instantly. .    If you burn it, it burns very cleanly.   

If nothing else,  I can assure you that is very handy stuff to have around the house, as  degreaser, label remover etc, the can I have says

"use in the home and art studio"  can be used thin oil based paint, 

DIY tip, household alkyd enamel thinned with it flows on smooth and thin, and dries fast, useful in cold weather.

 

I tried it for applying pastel chalk as an experiment,  which has produced results I was happy with.    Hence my sig line...

 

cheers

T

 

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We can agree to disagree about Vallejo, then. I've given plenty of tips about how to use it in the past.

 

I'm glad that you mentioned that it evaporates so rapidly; that's OK for some things but not for the techniques which I like to recommend. They need working time.

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7 minutes ago, Ade H said:

We can agree to disagree about Vallejo, then. I've given plenty of tips about how to use it in the past.

I'll have to look those up, unless you have links to hand.   I'm not at my best today, getting over a wonderful cold and am full of snot.  :snorkle:

 

I like Vallejo,  perhaps we mean different things by durable,  I note it it's fragile, as in easily scratched on plastic without a primer,  but seems fine once varnished.   I have seen a lot of negativity about the paint, basically about it not sticking and being fragile,  and read your comment as another negative.

 

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I use Vallejo a lot and I've had lots of problems but it's mainly down to spoiled paint or primer. 

It is soft if you don't varnish it and that's what I do now as soon as possible.

 

I also use Vallejo primer, I wouldn't even consider not using it due to past experiences off pulling off paint with the masking tape.

 

For me, a novice, tamiya is the easiest to use but if you don't try other things then how will you learn and get better?

 

I'll get those pastels too, nothing to lose.

 

Thanks everyone.

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No, not negative at all -- quite the opposite. As I said, I've always tried to challenge the myths which have built up about Vallejo due to unfair criticism, which may have a basis in someone's experience but is often then echoed and amplified, sometimes by people who admit to never having used it. That leaves novices at risk of thinking that they should not use Vallejo products. But one has to know how to use a product and that goes for anything.

19 minutes ago, Doggy said:

It is soft if you don't varnish it

Hi Doggy. It can be soft if it's sprayed too thickly and not left to cure. But as I've probably said elsewhere, I almost never varnish anything, and certainly not as a way to protect paint which doesn't need to be protected. HS chipping, scrubbing, OPR, all done directly on Model Air and the poly primer (which I treat as a base colour).

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When I first started airbrushing like most folk I made loads of mistakes so I bought model air thinking it would save me, it didn't. 

 

I left it in my shed over winter, about -5c and it seems to have spoiled it, and the primer. It was little bits of dried paint constantly clogging the brush. So I bought flow improver and thinners and tried everything until I realised it wasn't me or the airbrush, it was bad paint. But I learnt, the hard way.

 

Now I'm less anal with measuring amounts of thinners etc, a splash here and a drop there. It always turns out much the same.

 

On a side note, I've used used Mig ammo for the first time today, wow. It's a lot easier than Vallejo and has a unusual smell I can't put my finger on. 

 

I used Vallejo thinner and flow improver with it thinking they were effectively the same product in a different bottle, they're not. I'm really impressed with the stuff, maybe I got a lucky bottle?

 

Thanks again.

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I quickly stopped using the flow improver because it seems that it can weaken the finish (maybe it gets in the way of curing) and I can spray much smoother without it.  Although as it's a surfactant, I keep it for other uses, e.g. pigment mixes. Saves buying an artists' equivalent.

 

That smell in Ammo is an annoying perfume additive. Don't spray it too eagerly or you'll get some funny looks when you go out! 😁

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Good read this.

I got back into the hobby about 4 years ago, a 30 yr break. I've tried 5+ different types of paint through my airbrush and all I do is go back to Tamiya. I experienced similar issues to Doggy with Vallejo.

 

I'm more than happy to accept the greatest limitation on paint is me. Slow painting, poor technique etc, I reckon so long as you're happy, you're happy. I'm not winning any awards so I've kind of thought "Use Tamiya youth and stop fretting". The first thing most of my family say when I show them a model is "is that a spitfire?". Even when it's an F15 or something!

 

It just makes me happy to be tinkering around.

 

Happy modelling folks.

 

 

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