US Navy F-4 Phantom II Colours - Vietnam Era

[Ray_W]

I hope you can assist with a couple of questions related to the typical US Navy Scheme of Gray FS *6440 and Insignia White *7875.

 

1. I have purposely shown the first descriptor as an asterisk (*). Was it specified as 1=gloss, 2=semi-gloss or 3=matt? If a glossy finish did it weather to matt? It seems the surface was typically a matt finish although external fuel tanks have a shine. A lot of repainting and touch up on Navy aircraft so it is all over the place. 

 

2. Was the white used in the wheel wells also Insignia White *7875? 

 

I am building Tamiya's latest F-4B rendition essentially OOB May 1972 BuNo 153020. The questions came to mind with Tamiya instructions specifying two flat whites TS-27 and XF-2. Possibly both whites are the same and just a convenience thing with the rattle can for big areas. I am using Mr. Color and AK Real Colors. It did make me think, what is the actual specification?

 

Ray

 

[Seawinder]

In 1972 it would have been 36440 (matte) and 17875 (gloss). Not sure about the wheel wells.

[Hook]

29 minutes ago, Seawinder said:

Not sure about the wheel wells

White as well. At least in new condition. 😎

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Seawinder]

10 hours ago, Hook said:

White as well. At least in new condition. 😎

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Yup, thanks. I wasn't sure about gloss vs. matte. I imagine they got dirty enough quickly enough that it wouldn't really matter.

[Ray_W]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:07 PM, Hook said:

White as well. At least in new condition.

 

Makes it easy to spray everything that is white in the Insignia White and it does seem sensible that all were the one standard in new condition; that is, undersurface, select flight control surfaces, wheel well bays and doors and undercarriage. I was hoping someone might know the spec to satisfy my curiosity. The reality is for a 1/48 scale model with some weathering and variation in sheen it really will be hard to pick anyway.

 

Greatly appreciate the prompt replies.

[WARDOG]

Yep, 

 

Gloss White for the gear and wheel wells.  It's easier to see fluid leaks on the gear struts and in the wheel wells.

 

WARDOG

Edited October 8, 2021 by WARDOG
Corrections

[CT7567]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:26 AM, Ray_W said:

I hope you can assist with a couple of questions related to the typical US Navy Scheme of Gray FS *6440 and Insignia White *7875.

 

1. I have purposely shown the first descriptor as an asterisk (*). Was it specified as 1=gloss, 2=semi-gloss or 3=matt? If a glossy finish did it weather to matt? It seems the surface was typically a matt finish although external fuel tanks have a shine. A lot of repainting and touch up on Navy aircraft so it is all over the place. 

 

2. Was the white used in the wheel wells also Insignia White *7875? 

 

I am building Tamiya's latest F-4B rendition essentially OOB May 1972 BuNo 153020. The questions came to mind with Tamiya instructions specifying two flat whites TS-27 and XF-2. Possibly both whites are the same and just a convenience thing with the rattle can for big areas. I am using Mr. Color and AK Real Colors. It did make me think, what is the actual specification?

 

Ray

 

 

Bear in mind the official order switching from FS 36440 (matte) to FS16440 (gloss) as the finish for the top color light gull gray was only issued in June 1971, so in 1972 there's still a definite possibility of having some aircraft in the fleet still wearing the earlier finish. Part of the reason for switching to gloss was the difficulty of keeping the matte finish clean, so if your subject shows heavy weathering in 1972 there's a good chance it's still in the older scheme.

[Ray_W]

23 hours ago, CT7567 said:

was only issued in June 1971, so in 1972 there's still a definite possibility of having some aircraft in the fleet still wearing the earlier finish.

 

I am modelling BuNo.153020, it seems this aircraft was delivered in May 1966 and served with VF-121, VF-213, VF-114, VF-92, VMFA-314, VMFA-122, VF-161 (Ref: Elward, Brad; Davies, Peter E.. US Navy F-4 Phantom II MiG Killers 1972–73: Part 2 (Combat Aircraft) (p. 191). Bloomsbury Publishing.) So it had a long combat service history. Images of the VF-161 livery, as applied to these old aircraft in new service, seems fairly pristine. However, judging by how tardy they became, and quite quickly, I am going with the FS 36440 option.

 

Weathering will be modest but noticeable as this aircraft had a short service life with VF-161. It seems this aircraft came into service with VF-161 May 1972; someone might have the actual details to confirm this. The double MiG kill achieved by pilot McKeown and RIO Ensch was in this aircraft May 23, 1972. The aircraft was then lost in combat action August 25, 1972 sadly resulting in the death of the pilot Michael Doyle. Ensch was again in the rear seat and became a POW. I am planning to model the aircraft sometime in that 3 month period after the May 23 action. I am yet to see a clear image of this aircraft from this period. Edit: Found one on http://www.revi.cz/, not the best image, grainy but does show a weathered aircraft and with the two kill markings. 

 

Thanks again to everyone for the useful input.

 

Ray

[wschurr]

In the early 70s, 36440 began being supplanted by 16440 so keep that in mind. F-4 undersides were always gloss. That includes gear wells. When I look at photos of 36440 painted aircradt, it seems there’s always a noticeable sheen. A search of photos in Pintrest will pretty much corroborate this.

[Retired Bob]

Tamiya do not mention the red edging to the gear doors, was this used on early F-4B aircraft from the mid 60s?

[Ray_W]

5 hours ago, wschurr said:

In the early 70s, 36440 began being supplanted by 16440 so keep that in mind. F-4 undersides were always gloss. That includes gear wells. When I look at photos of 36440 painted aircraft, it seems there’s always a noticeable sheen. A search of photos in Pintrest will pretty much corroborate this.

 

Thanks for this information. 

 

I actually never do an ultra flat finish in my aircraft modelling and by default work towards a very slight sheen. To my eye, this finish always seem a little more realistic. You only see this slightest of sheen from some angles anyway.

 

Looking at F-4 images, there is certainly a great deal of variation in the level of sheen based on the aircraft age and areas of repainting large and small. 

 

5 hours ago, Retired Bob said:

Tamiya do not mention the red edging to the gear doors, was this used on early F-4B aircraft from the mid 60s?

 

I also noted the Tamiya instructions and, in lieu of better information, plan to follow their recommendations. I have been looking at a number of images and there seems quite some variation, possibly the result of the amount of repair/repainting going on with these naval aircraft. Note the age and the over paint of stencilling in the second image. A few examples:

 

 

 

 

Ray

[Hook]

Nice pics, Ray!

 

One detail that I never saw but once spotted cannot unsee - the VF-84 example lacks the outboard landing gear cover. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Ray_W]

1 minute ago, Hook said:

the VF-84 example lacks the outboard landing gear cover.

 

Well spotted!