Tamiya Cromwell and Centaur in 1/35th - close to ready for weathering

[simmerit]

These are the second two in my mammoth parallel build.  Still got decals to go on the turret on the Centaur and the handles need painting canvas colour on the leather pads on the hatches.

 

Both builds have InAccutate Armour and Voyager etch and MasterClub tracks.  

 

 

 

 

And the Centaur

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just on the snag list before they get a coat of gloss varnish.

[Jasper dog]

Really nice looking pair, another to watch out for!

 

Atb

Darryl 

[Hamden]

 

A stunning pair superb finish and build

 

   Stay safe         Roger

[simmerit]

I'm just working my way round the final decals on the turret at the minute.

 

 

Not happy about that 150 degree numeric.....  and I've drilled the BESA using a set of dental burs.  A lad that's a dentist kindly furnished me with a full set of dental kit.  if I ever need to do fillings, I'm your man!

 

The wading kit is green.  I've seen a few builds on the hinterweb where people have painted the wading kit the same colour as the Centaur which is wrong.  These were produced for the Cromwell and painted green, then supplied for the Centaur.  

 

I've got the towing cables to finish and the tools are now on.  The r/h and l/h metal bars protecting the lights from damage need to be painted white, so still a few minor bits on the snag list. 

 

The Centuar has a fascinating history.  They were never supposed to leave the landing craft and were supposed to be used as support for the landings, which shellin taking place close to the beaches whilst still in the LCTs.  They landed and the crews which were tankies and marines couldnt help themselves.  Off they went in land.  There's been some debate as to how far they got.  Not sure if any made it from the orgiinial landings as far as Berlin

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by simmerit

[Bullbasket]

1 hour ago, simmerit said:

There's been some debate as to how fat they got. 

Depends on how much French cheese they liberated. (Sorry. Couldn't resist).

You're doing a cracking job on both of them. A27 is my second favourite tank after the M4.

BTW. Those tracks look spot on.

 

John.

[simmerit]

I really am at the wire on this one now.  Fire extinguishers are the final item to complete.  

 

I've just done the canvas handles on the leather padding on the inside of the hatches on both Panzers.  A lot of research went into these and a lad thats a bit of a subject matter expert on them (he's about to publish a book) pinged me to tell me the straps were canvas and not leather.  It's all about the detail is it not?

 

Hopefully I will get some Klear on this at the weekend and I can begin to weather it.  A bit more to do on the Centaur to nail it, but again, if I get some time at the weekend, the Centaur really is at the wire to get it over the line and complete.

 

Piccy below.  Canvas needs grubbying up from the wear and tear from the tankies.

 

 

 

 

 

[simmerit]

As I've jumped straight into pre-weathering, here's a few of the builds

 

Cromwell

 

 

 

The brass is Voyager.  Font mudguard was home made.

 

 

 

 

And the Centaur

 

 

 

 

 

Hinges were working but I decided to solder it closed.

 

 

This now just needs to other side of the turret decals doing and the fire extinguishers and that's it.

 

Pair of them together

 

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:12 AM, simmerit said:

They were never supposed to leave the landing craft and were supposed to be used as support for the landings, which shellin taking place close to the beaches whilst still in the LCTs.

 

So that's why they had those markings on the turrets. It's a very 'naval gunnery' sort of thing.

[simmerit]

19 minutes ago, Bertie Psmith said:

 

So that's why they had those markings on the turrets. It's a very 'naval gunnery' sort of thing.

 

Correct

[Kingsman]

A couple of details if I may.

 

You seem to have missed the sprung arms of the retaining catches for the Cromwell hatches.  They're there on the Centaur. 

 

This Centaur would not have the Cromwell-style "hockey stick" track tension adjuster on the left side of the engine compartment, as you have the Centaur-style worm drive track adjusters on the lower glacis just inboard of the towing shackles.  Some late Centaurs, including MkIVs with Type D hulls, did have the Cromwell-style adjusters but these did not have the glacis bosses.  The Tamiya kit is a Type C/Type D mishmash but is closer to a C because of the engine deck (and thus should have sloping front trackguards.....).  The Cromwell should carry the adjuster or it has no means of tensioning the tracks at the daily Halt Parade.  Unhappy Troop Sergeant or SSM.......

 

But congrats on not being tempted to do the Centaur in SCC15 and on picking up that SCC15 wading gear was fitted to SCC2 tanks.  All wading gear for D Day was SCC15, on OD tanks too - a point often overlooked.  My own version of the Centaur IV with partly removed wading gear is currently still stalled in the Paint Queue Of Shame after many months.  I'd better leave it there a while longer as this one is so good!

 

But with the wading trunking fitted there should have been waterproof covers and/or sealant over the gun mantlet, hull hatches, hull periscopes and all the hull plate joins.  Centaurs and Cromwells were buggers to waterproof because of the riveted rather than welded construction, so the outer plate joins were sealed too.  You can see this well on the photos of "Assegai".  The loader's hatch was easier to fit the coaming to than the commander's.  It was held in place with a heavy application of Bostik sealant IIRC.  I'm not sure what they did about the engine intake pagoda, which was of course redundant when fitted on a Centaur anyway so I guess it could be sealed up along with the engine deck hatches.  AFAIK the Centaurs got the same waterproofing treatment as Cromwells because there was no knowing how far out and in what depth of water they might find themselves, and drowned tanks were no use to anyone.  Several were lost to fire and mines on the beaches and 4 Troops' worth of tanks drowned despite the waterproofing, and some missed D Day completely.  Hunter was one of those that survived until RMASR was disbanded on D+14.

 

And no-one can explain how the graduations actually worked as they make no sense however you look at them.  Naval gunnery worked relative to the ship's head with degrees Red and Green, Port and Starboard.  That would mean 0 over the gun working round each side through 90 to 180 at the back.  If they're for compass bearings, 180 at the front only works if the vehicle is facing due South.  And in any case there did not seem to be a painted index point anywhere on the hull.  I believe that no RMASG tanks fired on the run in to their beaches, opening fire only after landing.  Some Troops probably did not fire at all, even after they joined up with their assigned RA Batteries.

[simmerit]

31 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

A couple of details if I may.

 

You seem to have missed the sprung arms of the retaining catches for the Cromwell hatches.  They're there on the Centaur. 

 

This Centaur would not have the Cromwell-style "hockey stick" track tension adjuster on the left side of the engine compartment, as you have the Centaur-style worm drive track adjusters on the lower glacis just inboard of the towing shackles.  Some late Centaurs, including MkIVs with Type D hulls, did have the Cromwell-style adjusters but these did not have the glacis bosses.  The Tamiya kit is a Type C/Type D mishmash but is closer to a C because of the engine deck (and thus should have sloping front trackguards.....).  The Cromwell should carry the adjuster or it has no means of tensioning the tracks at the daily Halt Parade.  Unhappy Troop Sergeant or SSM.......

 

But congrats on not being tempted to do the Centaur in SCC15 and on picking up that SCC15 wading gear was fitted to SCC2 tanks.  All wading gear for D Day was SCC15, on OD tanks too - a point often overlooked.  My own version of the Centaur IV with partly removed wading gear is currently still stalled in the Paint Queue Of Shame after many months.  I'd better leave it there a while longer as this one is so good!

 

But with the wading trunking fitted there should have been waterproof covers and/or sealant over the gun mantlet, hull hatches, hull periscopes and all the hull plate joins.  Centaurs and Cromwells were buggers to waterproof because of the riveted rather than welded construction, so the outer plate joins were sealed too.  You can see this well on the photos of "Assegai".  The loader's hatch was easier to fit the coaming to than the commander's.  It was held in place with a heavy application of Bostik sealant IIRC.  I'm not sure what they did about the engine intake pagoda, which was of course redundant when fitted on a Centaur anyway so I guess it could be sealed up along with the engine deck hatches.  AFAIK the Centaurs got the same waterproofing treatment as Cromwells because there was no knowing how far out and in what depth of water they might find themselves, and drowned tanks were no use to anyone.  Several were lost to fire and mines on the beaches and 4 Troops' worth of tanks drowned despite the waterproofing, and some missed D Day completely.  Hunter was one of those that survived until RMASR was disbanded on D+14.

 

And no-one can explain how the graduations actually worked as they make no sense however you look at them.  Naval gunnery worked relative to the ship's head with degrees Red and Green, Port and Starboard.  That would mean 0 over the gun working round each side through 90 to 180 at the back.  If they're for compass bearings, 180 at the front only works if the vehicle is facing due South.  And in any case there did not seem to be a painted index point anywhere on the hull.  I believe that no RMASG tanks fired on the run in to their beaches, opening fire only after landing.  Some Troops probably did not fire at all, even after they joined up with their assigned RA Batteries.

 

I am impressed!!!!  That's a great bit of feedback, and well spotted on the detail.

 

I've read a lot about these as I've cracked on with the builds, by which time its too late of course as you are already committed but the detail would be lost if you'd not done the donkey work.  I didnt do the spring arms on the Cromwell and having done them on the Centaur, thats one of the bits I do regret as its so obvious.

 

I've not done anything about the bostik yet, but there's still time as they are still WIP.  The wading gear seemed pretty obvious to me and I've been surprised none of the other modellers banging a Centaur out have spotted that one.  A few lads on ARRSE and I had a big debate about it after I'd done it - one of them is about to publish a book on these tanks.  I've come off ARRSE and regrettably didn't ask him when the book as due out.  We also had a massive debate about the gunnery, and a couple of matelots piled in with a view, so all round a fascinating discussion.

 

One odd one - I did come across what I believe was a Centaur in Berlin, so was left wondering if one has made it all the way.  I didnt look into it, but if I get the chance, I will see if I can do some digging.  I'd be surprised but you never know.

 

Thanks for the compliment on the build.  I'm well chuffed with it.  I just hope I dont screw up the weathering.  These are my first bit of armour in a very long time.

 

Cheers

 

Si

[simmerit]

There aren't many photos of Hunter and none exist of it on the beach.

 

 

 

Looking at the road surface, these were taken in two different locations, but the tree line suggests it may be the same road.

 

Interesting to see its still got a rear mudguard in place on the top photo on the l/h side, but on the second photo, the r/h mudguard has gone.  We will never know at what point it lost that second mudguard.  Mine has both so I'm assuming it had both as it came off the beach.

 

Two booties visible.  Not sure what cap badge the loader was - again, we will never know I guess.  Two of them look like they are in waterproofs.

 

The bostik is visible around the gun and its lost its wading gear, so not sure how far in-land these piccies were taken. 

[Kingsman]

IIRC they never got more than about 12 miles inland.  Most never made it that far and the unit was disbanded on D+14.  Some surviving Centaurs were passed to the Canadians and Free French to form independent Batteries and I have seen talk that some were later assigned to 6 Airborne Div (which seems unlikely).  About half the Regiments' strength was lost in the landings or arrived late.  Those that joined up with their "parent" RA Batteries as planned tended to stay put.  Those who did not acted more independently in direct support rather than static indirect.  Some joined AVREs in reducing German defensive positions.  The remnants of H Troop seems to have been more independently-minded, although only Hunter seems to have caught the camera's eye.  H Troop lost its Sherman "Hussar" and 2 Centaurs on the beach, leaving Hunter and 1 other.  But whether this was Hood, Hound or the unknown 4th tank does not seem to have been recorded.

 

You can see the vestigial waterproofing in various places on Hunter.  The 2" mortar is still covered.  The hull ventilator would have been covered too: I forgot that.  Retaining the 5th crewman seems a little redundant as he seems to have no job.  I've never understood why the hull MG wasn't reinstated.  Drivers came from RAC units IIRC but the other crew were all RM.

 

Note the antennas.  Only 1 antenna for the 19 set is mounted, the B set (left rear).  In the circumstances I guess the A set was redundant.  But there is an antenna on the 3rd base forward of the cupola, which suggests that a No38 set is installed also for RA Battery or infantry comms.

 

You can also see that Hunter did actually have the Cromwell-style track adjusters and so would have carried the hockey stick. I see now that you fitted those on the model too, but also fitted the worm adjuster bosses that were not present.  IIRC the instructions are not terribly clear on that area.

 

Your Centaur in Germany could have been a Centaur OP or even a Cavalier OP: both were deployed in limited numbers.  If it had the 95mm howitzer it was most likely a Cromwell VI: Cromwell Regiments generally had 2 in each Squadron HQ.  Some late production Centaur IVs were completed as Cromwell VIs.

 

This is the known list of RMASR tank names and numbers.  It's pretty scant for a strength of 80 Centaurs and 20 Shermans.  And not entirely clear.  Some sources mention a V Tp and the numbering isn't sequential: I. L, O and V are apparently not used.  I imagine the naming of tanks at the W-Z end of the alphabet (named for Navy ships of destroyer size or larger) might not have been strictly according to Troop letter.  The numbering of 5 Bty seems to be an assumption.

 

1 Battery, 1 RMASR (A-D Tps)
A Troop
ACHILLES T185084
ASHANTI
ASSEGAI T185096

2 Battery, 1 RMASR (E-H Tps)
F Troop
FOX ( Sherman )
H Troop
HOOD T185082
HOUND
HUNTER T186363
HUSSAR ( Sherman )

 

3 Battery, 2 RMASR (P, Q, S, T Tps)

S Troop
SEAWOLF T185075
T Troop
TEMERAIRE
TETRARCH

4 Battery, 2 RMASR (W-Z Tps)
W Troop
VIDETTE T185102

WARSPITE T147535 (Sherman)

 

5 Independent Battery (J, K, M, N Tps)
 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Das Abteilung
addition

[ERK]

Lovely work,   I have also been following your  Wokka build  - read  every page,   I too have a Chinook build on the site  - in the shape of the Revel 1/48  kit.

 

Erk.

[simmerit]

I'm just doing the last decals on the Centaur and surveying next steps.  I've got a set of PanzerArt WW2 British Fire extinguishers to do as I said, but have an issuette with the figures.  Apart from the fact that the cap badges are wrong, they are all in winter kit and I've got my wading kit on the Cromwell and Centuar which means the blokes are in the wrong dress for June in France.  Clearly it should be Bermuda shirts, Hawaiian shorts and flip flops.

 

These were a find (below), which solves the cap badge problem but I need to locate suitable tank crew.  Looking at the Centaur, the obvious answer is to sculpt as two of the lads have their waterproof capes on, and one of those figure is in an awkward pose in that nightmare of a hatch that was clearly designed for very small blokes! 

 

Anyway - these turned up on waltBay and I nabbed them for a fiver!  I couldn't believe it - a fiver and they turned up just at the point at which I was about to try and locate a set.  The detail is stunning

 

 

 

[simmerit]

14 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

IIRC they never got more than about 12 miles inland.  Most never made it that far and the unit was disbanded on D+14.  Some surviving Centaurs were passed to the Canadians and Free French to form independent Batteries and I have seen talk that some were later assigned to 6 Airborne Div (which seems unlikely).  About half the Regiments' strength was lost in the landings or arrived late.  Those that joined up with their "parent" RA Batteries as planned tended to stay put.  Those who did not acted more independently in direct support rather than static indirect.  Some joined AVREs in reducing German defensive positions.  The remnants of H Troop seems to have been more independently-minded, although only Hunter seems to have caught the camera's eye.  H Troop lost its Sherman "Hussar" and 2 Centaurs on the beach, leaving Hunter and 1 other.  But whether this was Hood, Hound or the unknown 4th tank does not seem to have been recorded.

 

You can see the vestigial waterproofing in various places on Hunter.  The 2" mortar is still covered.  The hull ventilator would have been covered too: I forgot that.  Retaining the 5th crewman seems a little redundant as he seems to have no job.  I've never understood why the hull MG wasn't reinstated.  Drivers came from RAC units IIRC but the other crew were all RM.

 

Note the antennas.  Only 1 antenna for the 19 set is mounted, the B set (left rear).  In the circumstances I guess the A set was redundant.  But there is an antenna on the 3rd base forward of the cupola, which suggests that a No38 set is installed also for RA Battery or infantry comms.

 

You can also see that Hunter did actually have the Cromwell-style track adjusters and so would have carried the hockey stick. I see now that you fitted those on the model too, but also fitted the worm adjuster bosses that were not present.  IIRC the instructions are not terribly clear on that area.

 

Your Centaur in Germany could have been a Centaur OP or even a Cavalier OP: both were deployed in limited numbers.  If it had the 95mm howitzer it was most likely a Cromwell VI: Cromwell Regiments generally had 2 in each Squadron HQ.  Some late production Centaur IVs were completed as Cromwell VIs.

 

This is the known list of RMASR tank names and numbers.  It's pretty scant for a strength of 80 Centaurs and 20 Shermans.  And not entirely clear.  Some sources mention a V Tp and the numbering isn't sequential: I. L, O and V are apparently not used.  I imagine the naming of tanks at the W-Z end of the alphabet (named for Navy ships of destroyer size or larger) might not have been strictly according to Troop letter.  The numbering of 5 Bty seems to be an assumption.

 

1 Battery, 1 RMASR (A-D Tps)
A Troop
ACHILLES T185084
ASHANTI
ASSEGAI T185096

2 Battery, 1 RMASR (E-H Tps)
F Troop
FOX ( Sherman )
H Troop
HOOD T185082
HOUND
HUNTER T186363
HUSSAR ( Sherman )

 

3 Battery, 2 RMASR (P, Q, S, T Tps)

S Troop
SEAWOLF T185075
T Troop
TEMERAIRE
TETRARCH

4 Battery, 2 RMASR (W-Z Tps)
W Troop
VIDETTE T185102

WARSPITE T147535 (Sherman)

 

5 Independent Battery (J, K, M, N Tps)
 

 

Post your build.  It would be great to see it.

[simmerit]

oops

Edited October 9, 2021 by simmerit

[Dads203]

40 minutes ago, simmerit said:

oops

Resup has arrived or the 19 crimes has kicked in 

[simmerit]

1 hour ago, Dads203 said:

Resup has arrived or the 19 crimes has kicked in 

 

19 Crimes.  Now on Merlot

[Kingsman]

21 hours ago, simmerit said:

Post your build.  It would be great to see it.

Here's a link to it back in the dark depths of this forum. I see that I started the blog almost 2 years ago. And it's still in primer!

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235065015-rmasg-centaur-and-sherman/&do=findComment&comment=3527749

 

[Kingsman]

For the figures could you use any of the Miniart US figures in rain capes for the bodies? Miniart's other British tank and armoured car crew sets might yield something. Shorts won't matter for the turret hatches. I dont believe that RMASR got the tankers' overalls and instead wore battledress. Pre-DDay training photos show trousers and shirts, sleeves rolled up. But the initial period after D Day was not good weather 

[bigfoot]

On 10/9/2021 at 1:06 AM, Das Abteilung said:

IIRC they never got more than about 12 miles inland.  Most never made it that far and the unit was disbanded on D+14.  Some surviving Centaurs were passed to the Canadians and Free French to form independent Batteries and I have seen talk that some were later assigned to 6 Airborne Div (which seems unlikely).  About half the Regiments' strength was lost in the landings or arrived late.  Those that joined up with their "parent" RA Batteries as planned tended to stay put.  Those who did not acted more independently in direct support rather than static indirect.  Some joined AVREs in reducing German defensive positions.  The remnants of H Troop seems to have been more independently-minded, although only Hunter seems to have caught the camera's eye.  H Troop lost its Sherman "Hussar" and 2 Centaurs on the beach, leaving Hunter and 1 other.  But whether this was Hood, Hound or the unknown 4th tank does not seem to have been recorded.

 

You can see the vestigial waterproofing in various places on Hunter.  The 2" mortar is still covered.  The hull ventilator would have been covered too: I forgot that.  Retaining the 5th crewman seems a little redundant as he seems to have no job.  I've never understood why the hull MG wasn't reinstated.  Drivers came from RAC units IIRC but the other crew were all RM.

 

Note the antennas.  Only 1 antenna for the 19 set is mounted, the B set (left rear).  In the circumstances I guess the A set was redundant.  But there is an antenna on the 3rd base forward of the cupola, which suggests that a No38 set is installed also for RA Battery or infantry comms.

 

You can also see that Hunter did actually have the Cromwell-style track adjusters and so would have carried the hockey stick. I see now that you fitted those on the model too, but also fitted the worm adjuster bosses that were not present.  IIRC the instructions are not terribly clear on that area.

 

Your Centaur in Germany could have been a Centaur OP or even a Cavalier OP: both were deployed in limited numbers.  If it had the 95mm howitzer it was most likely a Cromwell VI: Cromwell Regiments generally had 2 in each Squadron HQ.  Some late production Centaur IVs were completed as Cromwell VIs.

 

This is the known list of RMASR tank names and numbers.  It's pretty scant for a strength of 80 Centaurs and 20 Shermans.  And not entirely clear.  Some sources mention a V Tp and the numbering isn't sequential: I. L, O and V are apparently not used.  I imagine the naming of tanks at the W-Z end of the alphabet (named for Navy ships of destroyer size or larger) might not have been strictly according to Troop letter.  The numbering of 5 Bty seems to be an assumption.

 

1 Battery, 1 RMASR (A-D Tps)
A Troop
ACHILLES T185084
ASHANTI
ASSEGAI T185096

2 Battery, 1 RMASR (E-H Tps)
F Troop
FOX ( Sherman )
H Troop
HOOD T185082
HOUND
HUNTER T186363
HUSSAR ( Sherman )

 

3 Battery, 2 RMASR (P, Q, S, T Tps)

S Troop
SEAWOLF T185075
T Troop
TEMERAIRE
TETRARCH

4 Battery, 2 RMASR (W-Z Tps)
W Troop
VIDETTE T185102

WARSPITE T147535 (Sherman)

 

5 Independent Battery (J, K, M, N Tps)
 

Hi DA, where are the names for H troop and T troop sources from? I’m aware of the ones from photographs but where have the other names been recorded?

 

Warspite is a 5 IB vehicle, photographs of it clearly have a 5 badge on the front. Also, I commonly see Vidette as a W troop vehicle but I don’t see why. There’s enough W… named warships to name the full troop after so in my mind it’s more likely from a V troop. It’s often linked to 5IB so it’s more likely IMO that 5IB had V,W and two other troops in it. 
 

great work on the Cromwell and centaur.  Nice pick up on the SCC15 wading gear. I will remember that for when I get around to doing my RMASG section for my sword beach project. Looking forward to seeing your sculpting if the crew if you go that route, I always want to try it but haven’t got the skills!

[simmerit]

7 hours ago, bigfoot said:

Hi DA, where are the names for H troop and T troop sources from? I’m aware of the ones from photographs but where have the other names been recorded?

 

Warspite is a 5 IB vehicle, photographs of it clearly have a 5 badge on the front. Also, I commonly see Vidette as a W troop vehicle but I don’t see why. There’s enough W… named warships to name the full troop after so in my mind it’s more likely from a V troop. It’s often linked to 5IB so it’s more likely IMO that 5IB had V,W and two other troops in it. 
 

great work on the Cromwell and centaur.  Nice pick up on the SCC15 wading gear. I will remember that for when I get around to doing my RMASG section for my sword beach project. Looking forward to seeing your sculpting if the crew if you go that route, I always want to try it but haven’t got the skills!

 

I've got a gun crew on the go for a Mat in the work in progress forum and I sculpted the figures.  Heads are Hornet.  Have a look.  It's pretty straightforward.

 

I've just sorted the fire extinguishers.  These are from PanzerArt.  I've removed the mounts with a bit of careful filing, but its now champagne o'clock and it's calling my name, so that's me done for the day.  I cant complain as I've had over three hours on the Wokka.

 

 

I'll get these primed tomorrow and painted on Tuesday then that's it.  Four Panzers to weather and 21 blokes to paint!

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by simmerit

[metadyne]

Blimey Si, these are indistinguishable from the real thing, it's only the background that gives them away. You're getting me into red wine too by the way, doesn't make you a bad person does it.

[simmerit]

30 minutes ago, metadyne said:

Blimey Si, these are indistinguishable from the real thing, it's only the background that gives them away. You're getting me into red wine too by the way, doesn't make you a bad person does it.

 

Thank you.  I must say I'm really please with it thus far.  I've just invested in a chunk of Mig Ammo stuff as the various muds I had are either now solid or have been sat for about 5 years so I've binned them.  I plan to have a little crack at the Chally 2 wheels I binned with some of the Mig stuff before I go anywhere near any of the current builds.  As seen soem models that look like they have been slapped with a healthy layer of playdough masquerading as mud on them and its ruined some OK builds people have done.

 

Wine is a good thing!!  But on on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday and it doesn't agree with running!