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Amusing Hobby 1/35th Centurion Mk5 build


simmerit

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I'm not going to push a point if you're not keen. I'm just trying to help by describing what I would do. But you suggested that you would like to use zenithal modulation and to do that, you're going to have to decide on a tonal range and stick to it, even if that requires the average brightness value to be lighter than is strictly "correct". And in any case, anything above black can be darkened; if we paint a black camo colour, we don't actually use black because then there's nowhere to go.

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Apologies for being late to the party… following as always .. fine work on the etch sir .. you have really come on since we first met and you were using Lego and pritt-stick…..

looking forward to the rest mate 
 

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15 hours ago, Ade H said:

I'm not going to push a point if you're not keen. I'm just trying to help by describing what I would do. But you suggested that you would like to use zenithal modulation and to do that, you're going to have to decide on a tonal range and stick to it, even if that requires the average brightness value to be lighter than is strictly "correct". And in any case, anything above black can be darkened; if we paint a black camo colour, we don't actually use black because then there's nowhere to go.

 

Its not that I'm not keen, and none of us are too old to stop learning! Please post a link if you've got any examples and I'll have a look.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, viper-30 said:

Apologies for being late to the party… following as always .. fine work on the etch sir .. you have really come on since we first met and you were using Lego and pritt-stick…..

looking forward to the rest mate 
 

 

8 years on the Wokka has helped!!!!

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I'm not sure what else to advise. If I've understood your thinking about your model, you want a true-to-life paint finish, but at the same time, you're understandably worried about it being too monochromatic. Is that a fair description?

 

It seems like you're in that spot which most of us occupy at some point. "Do I paint this in what I believe is an entirely realistic, true to life way? Will that actually turn out looking real or too model-like? Do I go a little bit more artistic? If so, how and by how much?"

 

It's not easy to communicate in words what I want to say, so I do worry when I talk about painting that some people who read it could have an image in their minds which has been influenced by the more extreme styles in some publications (especially from Spain) and they don't know that whatever technique I'm suggesting can be done with as much subtlety as they like. It's important not to take any style too literally if it's not to our taste or seems not to fit with whatever we make. We can still take some things from it and adapt them.

 

For instance, you might see a cleverly modulated tank in The Weathering, with lots of occlusion and greatly varied tonal range, but if it's overdone to your taste (and it may well be overdone for me as well) it could easily put you off the technique. And yet it could be insipration for something more subtle and "realistic" (somewhat subjective term).

 

I think that a lot of modellers worry a bit too much about realism, totally forgetting that we make little plastic tanky things which aren't real anyway, so we need to do some things to create a kind of illusion. And we already do a lot of that without a second thought.

 

Regarding links, I'm not sure what you want links to, if you see what I mean. Unfortunately, I can't link to someone's nicely painted Centurion (I haven't seen any that I recall) and explain how they did it (probably wouldn't know for sure anyway). I could suggest some potentially useful YT channels, such as Night Shift and Rinaldi Studio Press, but that goes back to my point about not taking someone else's style too literally.

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54 minutes ago, Ade H said:

I'm not sure what else to advise. If I've understood your thinking about your model, you want a true-to-life paint finish, but at the same time, you're understandably worried about it being too monochromatic. Is that a fair description?

 

It seems like you're in that spot which most of us occupy at some point. "Do I paint this in what I believe is an entirely realistic, true to life way? Will that actually turn out looking real or too model-like? Do I go a little bit more artistic? If so, how and by how much?"

 

It's not easy to communicate in words what I want to say, so I do worry when I talk about painting that some people who read it could have an image in their minds which has been influenced by the more extreme styles in some publications (especially from Spain) and they don't know that whatever technique I'm suggesting can be done with as much subtlety as they like. It's important not to take any style too literally if it's not to our taste or seems not to fit with whatever we make. We can still take some things from it and adapt them.

 

For instance, you might see a cleverly modulated tank in The Weathering, with lots of occlusion and greatly varied tonal range, but if it's overdone to your taste (and it may well be overdone for me as well) it could easily put you off the technique. And yet it could be insipration for something more subtle and "realistic" (somewhat subjective term).

 

I think that a lot of modellers worry a bit too much about realism, totally forgetting that we make little plastic tanky things which aren't real anyway, so we need to do some things to create a kind of illusion. And we already do a lot of that without a second thought.

 

Regarding links, I'm not sure what you want links to, if you see what I mean. Unfortunately, I can't link to someone's nicely painted Centurion (I haven't seen any that I recall) and explain how they did it (probably wouldn't know for sure anyway). I could suggest some potentially useful YT channels, such as Night Shift and Rinaldi Studio Press, but that goes back to my point about not taking someone else's style too literally.

 

That's exactly the problem I'm wrestling with at the minute and the issues (I say again) is Deep Bronze Green and the mirror finish.  

 

Re people overdoing weathering.  The British Army maintains kit to a high standard, or at least it used to in my day.  I see stuff these days that needs to be run through a paint workshop, and if they dont do that, they should give the squaddies a paint brush, a pot of paint and tell them to crack on.  I've seen Wolf's on the motorway that are a right mess and some piccies of Chally's recently as well.

 

Regarding linkes to exemplar Centurions in Bronze Green, keep your eyes peeled on this build as it looks like it may well be one of the few that's about!  Like you say, at the end of the day its a model.

 

That's me off on the p**s.  Night all!

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I wonder if that's the budget cuts biting in every possible way...

 

You gave a me a thought, though. Shiny paint is, as you alluded to earlier, only shiny from some angles; so you could play with different sheens per panel (or perhaps on panels which share an angle) as part of your modulation. Some differences in tone and sheen could get you what you're after. If it helps any, I find that it makes a difficult job easier if I think backwards from what I want a build to look like, as it makes the path to achieving it clearer in my mind.

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With that bronze green you've a really tricky job in your hands...

• Bronze green, very dark and glossy 

• Parade ground clean, generally. (Can we get away with a little dust and rain streaks,       they must have moved at some point).

As has been said if painted "true to life" and all over Bronze Green it will just look like a boring black lump, no offence. 

However you arn't painting the real thing, you have scale and distance and how the light reacts on a surface that size as opposed to a full size one etc etc.

 

How about and Apologies to Ade if he's suggested this, (I know some of the techniques but couldn't give them the correct name). 

Lighten your Bronze Green (BG from now on), with a touch of something possibly yellow or tan or buff. Pick a light source or position and highlight the leading edge and top (for eg) with a very slight lightened version of the above BG then go "old school" and dry brush the edges, bolt heads etc with something much lighter (not sure what yet but not straight white). You could even add shadows with the straight BG and do the large panel centres the same. It's all going to be about subtlety, slight changes in the base colour as opposed to major ones if it had been an OD M4.

As for gloss, what about satin instead, more scale effect? 

Haven't ever tried this but can you mix a drop or two of satin varnish into the BG to get the required sheen.

All the above would need to be in light coats, obviously but..

 

Looking at the afv club box art, forget the dirt, the artist has picked a light source and lightened accordingly 

spacer.png

 

 

I think what I'm trying to say is; think of it as stage make up, that has to be exaggerated to be noticed.

 

That's just my tuppence worth after mulling it over on the dog walk. 

Think it's going to involve a but of experimentation but sure you could do a superb job.

 

Good luck

Darryl 

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42 minutes ago, Jasper dog said:

With that bronze green you've a really tricky job in your hands...

• Bronze green, very dark and glossy 

• Parade ground clean, generally. (Can we get away with a little dust and rain streaks,       they must have moved at some point).

As has been said if painted "true to life" and all over Bronze Green it will just look like a boring black lump, no offence. 

However you arn't painting the real thing, you have scale and distance and how the light reacts on a surface that size as opposed to a full size one etc etc.

 

How about and Apologies to Ade if he's suggested this, (I know some of the techniques but couldn't give them the correct name). 

Lighten your Bronze Green (BG from now on), with a touch of something possibly yellow or tan or buff. Pick a light source or position and highlight the leading edge and top (for eg) with a very slight lightened version of the above BG then go "old school" and dry brush the edges, bolt heads etc with something much lighter (not sure what yet but not straight white). You could even add shadows with the straight BG and do the large panel centres the same. It's all going to be about subtlety, slight changes in the base colour as opposed to major ones if it had been an OD M4.

As for gloss, what about satin instead, more scale effect? 

Haven't ever tried this but can you mix a drop or two of satin varnish into the BG to get the required sheen.

All the above would need to be in light coats, obviously but..

 

Looking at the afv club box art, forget the dirt, the artist has picked a light source and lightened accordingly 

spacer.png

 

 

I think what I'm trying to say is; think of it as stage make up, that has to be exaggerated to be noticed.

 

That's just my tuppence worth after mulling it over on the dog walk. 

Think it's going to involve a but of experimentation but sure you could do a superb job.

 

Good luck

Darryl 

 

No offence taken - its its precisely the issue I have - a big black lump.  It's a block colour.  I built a Firing Line Saracen a few years ago which is finished in Bronze Green.  I didnt do anything about the light shading on it and its a brick.  It's OK because the Saracen model is small, but this Cent is a big thing.  When I compare it to one of my Chally 2s its actually bloody mahoosive.  I wonder how it would have got on against a King Tiger.

 

On the paint front, I've got Deep Bronze Green and Mid Bronze Green from Hannants.  I'll have a look and see if they do a Light Bronze Green.  A combination of the three shades to create the effect of light may work.  The other thought you've prompted is a combination of gloss and satin varnish on the different panels.  That may recreate the 'sunny day' effect.  As you say - a bit of experimenting on an old model may not be a bad idea.

 

I did dig this out of my photos - it was one of our 1 Tonners in mortars.  It illustrates the light effect quite well.

 

I did track this vehicle down last year.  It's in St Lucia and painted pink and covered in brightly painted sunflowers.  I could have wept.......

 

9AA5D394-583E-427C-AE91-2D62C761E868

 

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58 minutes ago, Jasper dog said:

Apologies to Ade if he's suggested this, (I know some of the techniques but couldn't give them the correct name). 

Lighten your Bronze Green (BG from now on), with a touch of something possibly yellow or tan or buff. Pick a light source or position and highlight the leading edge and top (for eg) with a very slight lightened version of the above BG then go "old school" and dry brush the edges, bolt heads etc with something much lighter (not sure what yet but not straight white). You could even add shadows with the straight BG and do the large panel centres the same. It's all going to be about subtlety, slight changes in the base colour as opposed to major ones if it had been an OD M4.

As for gloss, what about satin instead, more scale effect? 

Haven't ever tried this but can you mix a drop or two of satin varnish into the BG to get the required sheen.

Mornin' Darryl. No apologies needed, mate.

 

But I think that I agree with you about what to lighten it with, except that I suggested something more yellow ochre because I've played around with sandy colours under things like SCC15 and dark RAF greens and they tend to desaturate them -- they end up looking dusty. Also, I believe that some greens, such US OD, were mixed from ochre, so that's probably why it tends to work well.

 

For dry brushing, I recommend using the base colour (or other darker tone) wherever it has been lightened or given dust. They key thing is that the edges should be darker, hence looking cleaner, than the fade or dust effect.

 

And yep, you can mix varnishes with paint colours. My only counsel about that is that simmerit may find it easier to adjust the per-panel or per-direction sheen after the green paint layer rather than trying to do two things involving mixes -- tone and sheen -- in one go.

Edited by Ade H
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31 minutes ago, Ade H said:

Mornin' Darryl. No apologies needed, mate.

 

But I think that I agree with you about what to lighten it with, except that I suggested something more yellow ochre because I've played around with sandy colours under things like SCC15 and dark RAF greens and they tend to desaturate them -- they end up looking dusty. Also, I believe that some greens, such US OD, were mixed from ochre, so that's probably why it tends to work well.

 

For dry brushing, I recommend using the base colour (or other darker tone) wherever it has been lightened or given dust. They key thing is that the edges should be darker, hence looking cleaner, than the fade or dust effect.

 

And yep, you can mix varnishes with paint colours. My only counsel about that is that simmerit may find it easier to adjust the per-panel or per-direction sheen after the green paint layer rather than trying to do two things involving mixes -- tone and sheen -- in one go.

 

Sheen has to be done separately.  Over complicating things tends to lead to disasters..

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Video to illustrate darker dry brushing. This is one of YT's timestamp links, so if it doesn't work properly, skip to approx. 2h:30m (also has a link in the video's description).

 

 

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Just now, Ade H said:

Video to illustrate darker dry brushing. This is one of YT's timestamp links, so if it doesn't work properly, skip to 2h:21m (also has a link in the video's description).

 

 

 

I'll have a look when I get a minute.  

 

Bronze green is going to be an utter git.  If you look at my Cromwell which is with the Centaur I'm on with at the minute, which is SCC15, you will see the paint job has worked well, but that's because its considerably lighter than Bronze Green.  Cromwell and Centaur now need weathering by the way.

 

I have been looking on the hinterweb and I cant find any examples of Bronze green mode Cents in 1/35th.  I'm sure it must have been done before as the Tamiya Cent has been around for years.  lets see how I get on.  Its going to be a while before I'm painting as there is a stack of etch.

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I don't want you to feel like we're trying to push you into doing anything which you think is too much to take on or not suitable for you or the model. I know that all these painting techniques can feel a bit overwhelming at first. Your model, your methods.

 

If you have a paint mule and the time to spare, why not try a complete or near-complete paint job on just one small section and see how it comes out.

 

Very dark colours in general may seem like the hardest, but they're not really that bad. Think of the histogram for a photo: some photos just have very low dynamic range and it just works. If some tanks are all dark tones -- dark base colour, dark weathering, etc. -- it doesn't greatly matter as long as there's enough contrast to see it. There's still room within that range to create variety.

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15 minutes ago, Ade H said:

I don't want you to feel like we're trying to push you into doing anything which you think is too much to take on or not suitable for you or the model. I know that all these painting techniques can feel a bit overwhelming at first. Your model, your methods.

 

If you have a paint mule and the time to spare, why not try a complete or near-complete paint job on just one small section and see how it comes out.

 

Very dark colours in general may seem like the hardest, but they're not really that bad. Think of the histogram for a photo: some photos just have very low dynamic range and it just works. If some tanks are all dark tones -- dark base colour, dark weathering, etc. -- it doesn't greatly matter as long as there's enough contrast to see it. There's still room within that range to create variety.

 

This was the last big block colour model I did and it seemed to go OK

 

Spad

 

1/32nd Spad.

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"British Army Diamond T Tank Transporter with Centurion Project"

 

Remembered this from a while ago;

Not sure if this helps at all, haven't read it through due to being at work but.....🤞

 

Enjoy a beverage or two btw:beer:

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3 minutes ago, Jasper dog said:

"British Army Diamond T Tank Transporter with Centurion Project"

 

Remembered this from a while ago;

Not sure if this helps at all, haven't read it through due to being at work but.....🤞

 

Enjoy a beverage or two btw:beer:

 

ta.  Will look when back if I'm capable!  

 

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7 hours ago, Jasper dog said:

"British Army Diamond T Tank Transporter with Centurion Project"

 

Remembered this from a while ago;

Not sure if this helps at all, haven't read it through due to being at work but.....🤞

 

Enjoy a beverage or two btw:beer:

 

Just had the most expensive curry I think I've had in my life!  Next door to a Bentley garage in Mayfair  - they had a 1930 4.5L Bentley on show complete with Chrome engine.  Absolutely stunning.  I did take a snap

 

Anyway - I had a look at that Cent on the tube on the way in and he did it in SCC15 and the paint is faded with yellow and then he weathered it.  Looks like he must have watched those videos that other lad was on about a couple of posts ago.  His Cent was a Mk3 and he reckons they were painting them with SCC15 in the early 50s.  I cant see it myself - I reckon they were back on Bronze Green by then, which was also the colour used during the inter-war years between WW1 & WW2.

 

I'm sticking to my original plan, so let's see how I get on with it.  I will tweak it to use satin and gloss varnish to effect sunlight/mirror effect with the gloss and see how that goes. If its still blocky, I'll be on green and black in the blink of an eye!!

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3 minutes ago, viper-30 said:

Smbo .. glad you enjoyed your mega curry ..cmt believe you didn’t take pictures I mean wtf.

don’t worry about the technician style painting..crack on and do .

 

That's the plan!

 

Now look at this

 

Bentley

 

I could have stood there all night.  Absolutely beautiful.

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That really is a lovely Bentley, now if only I'd  bought one of those Euromillions lottery tickets....

Remember years ago being blown away on the M6 by one, passed me like I was stationary. 

 

Great bit of etch soldering btw, never tried it myself another skill/technique to be butchered.

 

Darryl 

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12 hours ago, Ade H said:

Do you mean me? If so, I have a name. I was just trying to help you.

 

Everyone's a 'lad' when you come from Sunderland which is where I come from, so dont worry about it.

 

Rivet Counter mode 'on'.

 

It's quite an interesting discussion/debate - particularly if you are modelling British kit in the late 40's/early 50s, right up through the cold war.

 

Now if you look at that lad that built the Cent for his old man, he went for SCC15 for an early 1950s Cent and his reasoning was 'there was a lot of SCC15 pain about following WW2'. In reality there was a general order from the Ministry of Supply in late 1947 which was issued by the Fighting Vehicle Design Department (FVDD) that all vehicles would be painted Bronze Green from 1st January 1948.  His Cent was a Mk3 - it will have been Bronze Green.  No doubt about it. 

 

There were only 350 Mk1 & Mk2 Cents manufactured between 1944 and 1948.  Mk3s were manufactured from 1948.  If it went to Korea, (which looking at his build his old man was BAOR which means it didnt), it would have been hand painted in the field as Bronze Green was not great for cam purposes (Shape, Shadow, Shine, Silhouette, Surface, Spacing and Sudden Movement) - it was too shiny.  Korean Cents would have been olive drab, but I've no doubt there will also be examples of Bronze Green Korean Mk3s.   

 

As for the SCC15, thousands of gallons of SCC15 paint were cast following the war.  'Cast' means sold off.  When the Armed Forces are finished with kit - and that's anything from a table and chairs, right through to a Gazelle helicopter (in the case of the Army), its 'cast' - they flog if to recover cash.  Withams auction a lot of the cast equipment these days if you want to buy yourself an AFV.   If you are really sad (like me), you will have just read the Ministry of Supply Fighting Vehicles Design Department F.V Specification which is a 23 page document full of rivet counters night time reading material.

 

If I was painting that Cent, I'd possibly have gone for olive drab (his old man couldnt remember the colours as it was 60 years ago when when he did the build), but if I was a betting man, I'd have gone with Bronze Green.

 

1970 saw the start of the demise of Bronze Green with believe it or not, some vehicles being painted Bronze Green and Matt Black - that didn't last log thank god!  1971 saw a move to Olive Drab and Matt Black.  It was 1980 before we saw British Olive Drab which we now refer to as NATO Green. 

 

Now all the above is all fine and dandy, but if you look at that piccie of the one tonner I posted, I was running around that as a young lad in 1982 - there were still quite a few examples of kit still in Bronze Green, which hadnt been 'got' by the dreaded paintbrush.  I think they looked ace.  They used to polish up like glass and you could see your face in the panels like it was a mirror.

 

River Counter mode 'off'.

 

I'll come back to my Cent later but hopefully that give you some background which may be helpful for other modellers.  I've no doubt some of the older modellers who ran around in kit will also have a view!

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