Jump to content

RCAF Mitchell III question.


Artie

Recommended Posts

Dear Sirs: After a long time away from modelling (in every sense) due to severe health issues, I'm slowly resuming my old builds and "shelf Queens".

I'd like to ask for info about the RCAF Mitchell II/III used as trainers during the late 40s, early 50s. Specially regarding those yellow/black aircraft wich looked like target tugs. Any good pics or three views drawings?

TIA and BEST regards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Following wartime use, the RCAF Mitchell fleet survived the immediate post-war cuts.  Seven early Mitchell Mk.I (B-25B) served briefly in 1942.  Most of these were designated B-25D, or Mitchell II in RAF nomenclature.  Deliveries had been diverted from stocks produced for the RAF.  Twenty-nine ex-USAAF machines were also acquired, from the same production lots, resulting in deliveries of B-25D that had seen combat service with the USAAF in the Mediterranean.  Most of these were withdrawn from RCAF service early in 1950.

       In 1951, the RCAF ordered 75 further B-25J, known as the Mitchell III.  Thirty-seven were equipped with the APG-40 nose-mounted radar and were designated Mitchell III AI in the RCAF.  The AI examples were purchased to assist the training of aircrews going on to the Canuck radar equipped interceptor. The USAF was also receiving re-worked aircraft from the Hughes Tool Company with at least three radar configurations with the designations TB-25L, TB-25M and TB-25N.  Six further AI aircraft were borrowed from the USAF between August 1954 and June 1955, also for use at 3 (AW) OTU at North Bay.  Several non-AI aircraft had the same nose profile, but without the APG-40 radar late in service.

       Two aircraft (5220 and 5248) were modified with VIP interiors (if any ride in a Mitchell could be considered luxurious) complete with fuselage flash and were sometimes noted in records as Mitchell IIIST.  Three B-25 trimetrogon equipped aircraft were purchased to complete stereo photographic surveys, mainly in the North in April 1944.  A fourth Mitchell, now designated F-10 by the USAAF, arrived in April 1945.  Two of the four survived until the mid-fifties with improvised nose conversions.

       The Mitchell fleet served as a light bomber (LB), pilot trainers (PT), photographic platform (Mk.II), radar trainers (AI/AIA) and staff transport (ST).  It has also been noted as a target tug, and general transport.  The last flight of a RCAF Mitchell was on August 25, 1961.

  drawings and all colour details can be found in ....

Royal Canadian Air Force

Aircraft Finish and Markings

1947-1968

By Patrick Martin

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Have you checked CanMilAir for possible sets of markings which could provide more information?

 

I don't think it's in business anymore. I just went and looked but there is nowhere to order any decals or to even see them. No artwork either.

I think Bill pulled the pin a couple years ago.

 

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, dogsbody said:

 

I don't think it's in business anymore. I just went and looked but there is nowhere to order any decals or to even see them. No artwork either.

I think Bill pulled the pin a couple years ago.

 

 

Chris

Bill is going to re-open up his CanMilAir decal printing business this fall, hopefully by November. You are correct that he closed up shop a few years ago as his Alps printer bit the dust but he has recently purchased a new type of printer. 
 

Cheers,

Mark

Edited by cf18hornet
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/5/2021 at 6:16 PM, airjiml2 said:

Thanks for your answer...

According to Squadron Signal's In Action, HD326 is a Mitchell III, but some other info in my collection say It's a Mitchell II, as you correctly say. What lead me to a sea of doubts, are the tail gunner and side fuselaje gunners positions, both features from.the B25J. On the other hand, haven't been able tomfind any Pic showing the undersurfaces.....can't figure out about underwing codes or so....

Best regards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The side-gunners positions were introduced on the B-25D line, hence could be seen on the Mitchell II.  At least some early B-25s had a field modification for a rear gunner, but I doubt that any of these would become RAF Mitchells.  The B-25J's position required a deeper rear fuselage, so could not be applied to a Mk.II.  However, if some of these RCAF Mitchells were ex-Mediterranean B-25Ds, then certainly the side guns and maybe even a rear gunner position could have been present.

 

I can't be sure that the side gun positions were identical on the late D and the J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you click on the "silverhawk..." link provided above, the second photo (first black and white, of a busy ramp) shows a Mitchell II in the relative foreground- with code 'AT' on the nose- that features the side guns and tail gun installation. 

 

Graham is correct that the B-25J (Mitchell III) had a deeper rear fuselage, but it also had the dorsal turret moved forward to just behind the cockpit.  It gets a little harder to tell them apart if the dorsal turret has been removed, as happened sometimes with postwar examples, but the tail gun installation is noticeably different.  I believe that the side gun installations were also different, but that's a little more subtle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As mentioned, the waist positions were different from the B-25J, but while the "J" has staggered waist positions, the "D" did not. At some point, they also acquired a tail-gunner's position similar to that of the B-25J.  I say 'similar' because I've heard it said that they were somewhat different (shallower?) on account of the depth of the B-25D's rear fuselage.  I could only imagine manning both waist positions in addition to the rear-mounted dorsal turret, made for some really cramped conditions.

 

How they came to acquire the waist positions and the tail gunner's position, I'm not entirely sure, but I have heard that these B-25D's were initially transferred from US stocks, to the RAF (hence the RAF serials that were retained for the life of the a/c, even in RCAF post-war service).  Instead of going to the far-east as planned, they remained in Canada with 5 OTU) training crews for far-east duty.  At wars end, they were transferred to the RCAF.

 

If the tail position was indeed shallower, does anyone have the height difference of the tail gunner's glazing?  In a past-project, using the Italeri B-25B/C as a base, I cross kitted both the waist positions and the entire tailplane from their B-25J kit in order to arrive at a post-war RCAF Mitchel II.  There were other mods, mainly to the cowlings, but the end result looked right.  I've since decided that I can do better, so sometime in the future, it will be replaced.

 

Scott

Edited by Scott Hemsley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I gather that the Italeri rear fuselage is the same for both variants and (possibly) wrong for both.  The side gun positions were introduced on the production line: I presume that's true for the rear gunner but don't know.  The Schiffer book on the B-25 will presumably say.  There were a range of temporary rear gun positions on B-25s, usually with the rear transparency removed and the gunner lying prone.

 

The RAF only operated the B-25 in Europe - discounting a handful of ex-Dutch early aircraft that provided the backbone of early PR operations in India.  If they were RAF examples then they weren't going to the Far East.  An OCU would, by definition, be training crews on the type they were going to fly in combat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks a lot, gents.

All your info have been of great help. Now I'm sure I must discard the old Monogram J, and resume my project using an Accurate Miniatures D as a starting point.

Best regards, and have a Happy weekend!!

Edited by Artie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...