FAA Brewster Buffalo's

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

It's the obvious answer, isn't it?  But I can't in all conscience say that's what I see, even knowing it's what I should see.

I see what you mean.

It appears to be the same aircraft on the very same spot in both pictures. On page 55 I definitely see ASxxx, as you do. On page 39, not much can be discerned at the centre of the rightmost digit because of fuselage buckling and it does look more like a '3'. However, the right edge of the digit shows a single straight vertical leg. If it were '3', wouldn't there be two shorter vertical legs with a slight indentation in between?

[Seahawk]

Glad to have a second opinion, especially since different eyes see different things.  I can see clearly that the loop on the 3/9 is not complete but couldn't possibly venture an opinion either way on whether the righthand vertical has an indent or not.  The fact remains that this airframe did not leave Crete so both the plausible alternatives have rock-solid alibis.  As Sherlock Holmes said, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."  Ergo, it's AS419.

 

But if I ever get round to modelling this airframe, the last digit of the starboard side serial might look suspiciously like a 3.

[detail is everything]

16 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Thank you @Seahawk, the references you mention are exactly where they were taken from. Sorry for not giving full references, but they were not at thand while writing.

 

That would by my take as well.

 

The photo of Brabner's crashed aircraft in "Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete" (ASxxx upside down) shows that the rear fuselage was bent, I'd agree a finless aircraft might be Brabner's. To me, another pointer to AS419 is the position of the fuselage roundel, that appears to be further back than in 7Y and 7Z. About xxx13, maybe it would be possible to mistake '9' for '3'?

 

My other problem with serials, since "anybody knows" that the three aircraft in Crete were AS419, AS420, and AX814 (it's in "Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete"), is that either '7Y' or '7Z' would have to be AS420, but the fuselage roundel is positioned forward on both, which to me suggests AXxxx serials. But I may be wrong.

Sturtivant's "Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-1945" lists three serials with the same indication, PD 27.4.42, where PD is short for 'papers deposited', meaning the aircraft had long been out of existence by that date, possibly an administrative clean-up. These are AS420, AX810 and AX814. Furthermore, there is no information for AX816. Possibly the two abandoned in Crete were among these four? '7Y' is certainly AXxxx.

So it seems to me that everyone refers to "Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete" as the bible when identifying the three aircraft in Crete, when the photographic evidence is chucking up inconsistencies with the accepted serials of AS419, AS420, and AX814.  I think the identity of the three aircraft concerned is far from settled.  As @Seahawk says ' I can't in all conscience say that's what I see, even knowing it's what I should see.'

 

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, detail is everything said:

So it seems to me that everyone refers to "Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete" as the bible when identifying the three aircraft in Crete, when the photographic evidence is chucking up inconsistencies with the accepted serials of AS419, AS420, and AX814.  I think the identity of the three aircraft concerned is far from settled.  As @Seahawk says ' I can't in all conscience say that's what I see, even knowing it's what I should see.'

 

I suspect Cull in Air War.. is merely quoting Sturtivant in FAA Aircraft 1939-45 or they are both quoting a common source.  We can't alas ask Ray S.  Are 805's squadron records viewable on line?

[ClaudioN]

3 hours ago, Seahawk said:

I suspect Cull in Air War.. is merely quoting Sturtivant in FAA Aircraft 1939-45 or they are both quoting a common source.

Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete, by Shores, Cull and Malizia, was first published in 1987. Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-1945, by Sturtivant, was published in 1995. I believe Sturtivant worked from his own notes on aircraft serials taken from official documents, squadron diaries, pilot log-books, etc.

 

Narratives in Shores et al. sometimes include slightly edited versions of squadron diaries, maybe those three serials were taken from there?

 

Sturtivant lists two serials as '805 Sqn Maleme', these are AS419 and AS420. The accident to AS419 is reported. These are the only entries referring to Crete.

AX814 is listed as '805 Sqn 2.41', meaning that in February 1941 it was certainly with 805 Sqn. This is all we know from this source.

[Seahawk]

18 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete, by Shores, Cull and Malizia, was first published in 1987. Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-1945, by Sturtivant, was published in 1995.

 

Oops, thank you for the correction: important that we don't confuse our various sources.

[gingerbob]

48 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

 

... important that we don't confuse our various sources.

 

Yeah, it's their job to confuse us!

[Lee Howard]

On 27/10/2021 at 14:10, Seahawk said:

I suspect Cull in Air War.. is merely quoting Sturtivant in FAA Aircraft 1939-45 or they are both quoting a common source.  We can't alas ask Ray S.  Are 805's squadron records viewable on line?

We have seen 25 wartime logbooks of 805 NAS aircrew over the years and the information is likely to have come through those. I don't have the extracts to hand at the moment, though, to confirm.