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FAA Brewster Buffalo's


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I've considered this subject and studied photographs of FAA Buffalos further, 

 

Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown's account of flying a B-339B Buffalo at RNAS Yeovilton in early 1941:-

"These aircraft had been stripped of all specialist naval equipment and ferried from Canada to Britain aboard HMS Furious. They arrived in July 1940 and were assembled and repainted at Burtonwood."

 

My view is that they were painted in TSS rather than TLS on arrival in the UK.  There are good photos of ASXXX range aircraft in the UK.  Nearly all have the same paint finish with the spinner in one of the topside colours, rather than the usual DFS black or sky.  

 

On page 2 of Profile 217 on the Buffalo AS426, can be seen at what I believe to be a snowy RNAS Arbroath, lined up with other newly acquired American types including Martlet I AX828, itself repainted from its US delivery scheme in what was either the by then long superseded S.1.E scheme or more likely an unusual TSS with a high demarcation line also seen on some early 880 NAS Sea Hurricane Mk.1as when also based at RNAS Arbroath.  Any way, the tonal values between the Martlet and Buffalo seem the same and what convinces me is the spinner colour.  Another possibility is that they are in TLS with red spinners, ready to go direct to North Africa, but I think this is unlikely.

 

There is also a picture on the internet (though annoyingly I can't find it now, it was someone's published war time photo album linked to in a topic covering from when the chap was training to Buffalos on to Martlets and onwards south out of the desert war) of an 805NAS Buffalo AX820 next to a Sea Gladiator in Egypt and assuming the latter was still in TSS, the tonal values are also comparable.

 

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Early high demarcation Sea Hurricane Ia camouflage is another topic of debate, but 880NAS flew a few Martlet Is (including AX824) whilst waiting for their Hurricanes (see p69 Osprey Wildcat Aces of WWWII and P45/51/52 RN Aces of WW2) and it seems no coincidence that it is these Arbroath Martlet Is which are photographed wearing this unusual scheme as well as their first Sea Hurricanes.  So was this particular to 880NAS/Arbroath?

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It might be a problem to make conclusions, in some extent, on Brewster spinner colors.  The Belgian aircraft as delivered had dark green spinners, not black which was an RAF identity marking for home theater fighters.  (Similarly, the British order 339E's were delivered with Dark Earth spinners, since Brewster was apparently following the MAP camouflage diagram which so specifies.)  The FAA (ex-Belgian) Brewsters in Egypt appear to have weathered down to much the same tones as their ex-Belgian counterparts left to rot on Martinique, which most assuredly were never repainted.  As to home duty FAA Buffaloes,  TSS is not an impossibility, but why bother?

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On 10/21/2021 at 12:50 PM, detail is everything said:

On page 2 of Profile 217 on the Buffalo AS426, can be seen at what I believe to be a snowy RNAS Arbroath, lined up with other newly acquired American types including Martlet I AX828, itself repainted from its US delivery scheme in what was either the by then long superseded S.1.E scheme or more likely an unusual TSS with a high demarcation line also seen on some early 880 NAS Sea Hurricane Mk.1as when also based at RNAS Arbroath.  Any way, the tonal values between the Martlet and Buffalo seem the same and what convinces me is the spinner colour.  Another possibility is that they are in TLS with red spinners, ready to go direct to North Africa, but I think this is unlikely.

 

There is also a picture on the internet (though annoyingly I can't find it now, it was someone's published war time photo album linked to in a topic covering from when the chap was training to Buffalos on to Martlets and onwards south out of the desert war) of an 805NAS Buffalo AX820 next to a Sea Gladiator in Egypt and assuming the latter was still in TSS, the tonal values are also comparable.

I think it is very difficult to discuss colours on the basis of the Profile photo you mention. As you say, the assortment of aircraft (B-339B AS426, Martlet AX828 and a Douglas DB-7) looks like a "presentation of American aircraft", possibly to some authority or high-ranking officer. One report (see "Flight testing the Brewster Buffalo I", here) deals with night fighter trials carried out by A&AEE in July 1941 using '426. AS426 is recorded (in "FAA atrcraft 1939-1945") as being at Arbroath in June 1941. Considering the snowy background, we can assume it was there for some length of time, but in any case this has to be 1941. Seemingly, although the records provided by @Geoffrey Sinclair report the transfer of AS426 to the Royal Navy on 21 November 1940, the aircraft remained with the A&AEE for a few more months.

However, if this is the correct timing it makes AS426 rather irrelevant in our discussion of FAA colours, particularly for those aircraft that, by that time, had already been in the Middle East for some time.

 

AS422 would be more interesting, as on arrival it was sent almost at once to Hatston for testing by 804 Sqn. FAA, in parallel with tests of some others by A&AEE. The only rather blurry picture I saw does not allow any reasonable guess about colours.

I believe at first neither the RAF nor the RN had any clear idea, they were just trying to figure out what to do with the Brewsters. Incidentally, most aircraft passed through No. 4 MU in late August-early September 1940 (again, see the records provided by @Geoffrey Sinclair). Although nominally a repair depot, I believe at that time 4 MU was also involved in dealing with civilian contractors for modifications/repairs. Thus, I suspect the dates refer to some work (either fitting out, or modification for service, or both) being carried out on the B-339Bs before operational testing. Up to this point, I see no reason for introducing significant changes in colours other than British roundels, serials and, possibly, Sky undersurfaces, since the first recipient was RAF No. 71 Squadron. Interestingly, the report by Sqn. Ldr. Churchill, 71 Sqn. CO, contained the suggestion that the aircraft might be useful in the Middle East. Almost immediately after, about 15 aircraft were transferred to the RN and dispatched to Alexandria!

 

As far as the Middle East is concerned, the few photos of B-339Bs in Crete show the original 8" RAF-style serials. Other photos, including AX820 as you mention, had smaller serials and the 4" 'ROYAL NAVY' titles. Just an idea, but the ex-Greek Martlets, that arrived somewhat later than the Brewsters, remained for some time in their original "neutrality grey" finish and Bu. Nos. Progressively, they received 'ROYAL NAVY' titles, proper British serials and, eventually, even camouflage in still undetermined colours (I thought the desert scheme was great, but now I am more inclined towards the RN standard EDSG/DSG/Sky). Perhaps, the same kind of process involved the surviving B-339s, possibly repainted (No. 103 MU Aboukir?) to a more standard finish, and with fuselage roundels moved forward, to the same position as on the RAF Buffalos that were reaching Singapore in that same period.

Edited by ClaudioN
Serial corrected from AS 424 to AS422
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It should be remembered that the FAA initially required land-based aircraft to be painted in TLS rather than S1E.  There is a picture of Rocs outside the Boulton Paul factory showing this difference on new production aircraft.  As the Buffalo was not intended to be operated from RN carriers it seems unlikely that they would have been repainted in the UK, and at this time the appropriate camouflage for overseas was still seen to be TLS.  What might have happened in the ME is more open to question.  I believe that the change-over to TSS for everything came with the introduction of TSS in September 1940, perhaps Ian Gazely can confirm this?

 

The problem with TSS is that in b&w photos, when seen under different lighting conditions on different colour films and using different filters, it can appear in a very wide range of contrasts, which include being very difficult to distinguish between TLS and S1E/TSS.  This appears to be very largely due to how the blue in the EDSG is picked up by the film.

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Just to put this out here,..... R. 'Mike' Crosley in his excellent book `They Gave Me A Seafire' mentions coming back from the Med in HMS Eagle and seeing an all over grey Buffalo nestled in the corner of the hangar!!! Now,..... the only aircraft that I can think of wearing this scheme in the Med were the Martlet Mk.III`s (ex Greek),....... so was he mistaking a Martlet for a Buffalo?

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On 10/21/2021 at 12:50 PM, detail is everything said:

There is also a picture on the internet (though annoyingly I can't find it now, it was someone's published war time photo album linked to in a topic covering from when the chap was training to Buffalos on to Martlets and onwards south out of the desert war) of an 805NAS Buffalo AX820 next to a Sea Gladiator in Egypt and assuming the latter was still in TSS, the tonal values are also comparable.

It is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/billchilton/4508924436/in/album-72157623826178790/

 

What an interesting thread!!! I have ex-Hasegawa 1/72 Buffalo and intend to build it in one of the Crete schemes, but I'm not still fully convinced what camouflage colours should I use.

 

Edited by GrzeM
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52 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Just to put this out here,..... R. 'Mike' Crosley in his excellent book `They Gave Me A Seafire' mentions coming back from the Med in HMS Eagle and seeing an all over grey Buffalo nestled in the corner of the hangar!!! Now,..... the only aircraft that I can think of wearing this scheme in the Med were the Martlet Mk.III`s (ex Greek),....... so was he mistaking a Martlet for a Buffalo?

And, if he was not, which colour would that Buffalo be in?

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Primer ready for a repaint?

 

However, bear in mind that he possibly only had a glancing view, had likely never seen either before, and had been exposed to very limited amount of information on them.  We tend to forget the level of information available to contemporary observers, who most of the time had more important things to do than worry about it.  If it can be shown that he had seen either/both before, then perhaps not...

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Ahh, the modellers greatest conundrum, aircraft color schemes. Without clear proof or reliable first hand reports (emphasis on "reliable) we have no choice but to rely on whatever pertenant information possible and go with our best guess. Occasionally we find artifacts that support or contradict the information we once held as sancrosanct, a good example would be the revelation about the true color of the Pearl Harbor Zeros which were described by observers as having a yellowish hue. Once researchers discovered pieces of wreckage that had been kept out of the sun for many years they did various tests and found that although a greenish grey the coat of varnish applied for preservative effect gave the aircraft a yellowish appearance. Short of that kind of information coming forward sometimes we have no choice but to trust our paint schemes to luck. this is one of the elements of our hobby that makes it so interesting and frustrating too!

Cheers

 

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2 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

Short of that kind of information coming forward sometimes we have no choice but to trust our paint schemes to luck. this is one of the elements of our hobby that makes it so interesting and frustrating too!

And remember the researcher's fundamental dictum (perhaps from the Book of Armaments): there is no color scheme regulation that a crew chief with a paint brush cannot up-end. 😃

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Agreed, just like the controversy regarding the 56th FG and their T-Bolts. Black? Black blue? RAF colors? It goes on and on. I am glad my modeling OCD is not as bad as it used to be. Now I truly enjoy building my kits which I do to the best of my limited ability. Last time I checked this hobby is supposed to be fun. I'm building the much dreaded Hasegawa Mk IX and when all is said and done it sure looks like  Mk IX to me. Now Airfix, Eduard or Tamiya, where's that high backed Mk XIV we have been waiting for? I ain't getting any younger and it is on my bucket list and that bucket has been rattling more and more lately! 

Cheers

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3 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

Agreed, just like the controversy regarding the 56th FG and their T-Bolts. Black? Black blue? RAF colors?

61st FS only. . All 3 apply.   They Used RAF Night,  which is ultramarine hued black.  @lampie  has posted photo of original parts,  one with a bit of Lancaster in Night

see here

 

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1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

Colour conundrums are part of the fun... that is, unless they prevent building. @Spitfires Forever, let's not forget mauve-coloured A6M2-N Rufes... :fool:

And of course let's not forget pink Spitfires!  And then there is the infamous Farliegh Fruitbat, but we are only open that can of worms will we?

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12 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

And, if he was not, which colour would that Buffalo be in?

You tell me mate,...... because I don`t know! You would think that Crossley would know the difference between a Martlet and a Buffalo,..... but was he mis recollecting? Easily done. Some of the Martlet Mk.III`s my have come back to the UK,.... maybe one came back for trials,...... I`d have to check for sure,.....  they were soon re painted into camouflage in North Africa and left for Kenya later still. 

I`ve never seen an overall grey coloured Buffalo in British service,...... only US Navy service.

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On 10/23/2021 at 10:12 PM, tonyot said:

so was he mistaking a Martlet for a Buffalo?

Probably not as at the end of 1941 at Yeovilton, learnng to fly Hurricanes, he becomes acquainted with (but doesn't fly) a Martlet and gives a reasonable technical description of the differences between different marks of F4F.

 

Edit - Here's his description. Given he was au fait with diffrent F4F engines I'm sure he could pick one from a Buffalo. Scanned from the book.

 

One day a beautiful American single-seat radial-engined fighter arrived. It

 was dark blue and, as it had an arrester hook, we were interested to find out

. what lt was. It was a Martlet - the Royal Navy's name for a Wildcat - the

:Grumman F4F-1. Forty of them were leftovers from a French Naval order and

.we. now had them for our own use. However, this early version had Wright

 Cyclone engines which were always overheating, seizing up or just stopping if

hard pressed, for they were designed for civil aircraft. So only experienced pilots

.were allowed to fly them. They seemed to chuff around the circuit very fast

indeed and the squadron pilots thought they were wonderful and far faster than

.a Hurricane. They were proud that they had been chosen to fly such a difficult

aircraft, with its mass of mixture-control levers, its two-speed supercharger, its

:throttle which, someone said, opened the wrong way, its narrow, manually-

raised undercarriage and its impressively large cockpit covered in dials, levers

 and switches.

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Assuming Crosley's memory is not confused, "Fleet Air Arm aircraft 1939-1945" records two Brewster B-339Bs with 804 Sqn from November 1941, serials AS423 and BB450.

The squadron was a rather composite unit, parenting flights with Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes on RN Fighter Catapult Ships, as well as 804A Flight with 5 Sea Hurricanes in Gibraltar.

813F, the Eagle Fighter Flight, was reformed seemingly as an offspring of 804 Sqn.

 

As the FAA had very few Sea Hurricanes in that period (and Far East Buffalos were still an untried asset - just for a few more weeks), trialling the use of B-339Bs aboard Eagle does not seem an exceedingly odd idea. Assuming a two-aircraft fighter flight would have to deal mainly with enemy reconnaissance or bomber aircraft, the B-339B was still acceptably fast, manoeuvrable and with reasonable firepower for this purpose. In December 1941 the fighter squadron aboard USS Lexington (VF-2) was equipped with 18 F2A-3. The ex-Belgian B-339Bs, being derived from the F2A-2, would probably be better performers.

Maybe initially there was an intention to test AS423 and BB450 as shipboard fighters, possibly the scheme lapsing with the sinking of Ark Royal and the unexpected need to station Eagle with Force H.

 

Interestingly, Crosley expressly mentions arrester hooks, and any detail about the installation (that is, if it existed) would be extremely interesting, given that the Brewsters were de-navalised.

 

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8 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Assuming Crosley's memory is not confused, "Fleet Air Arm aircraft 1939-1945" records two Brewster B-339Bs with 804 Sqn from November 1941, serials AS423 and BB450.

The squadron was a rather composite unit, parenting flights with Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes on RN Fighter Catapult Ships, as well as 804A Flight with 5 Sea Hurricanes in Gibraltar.

813F, the Eagle Fighter Flight, was reformed seemingly as an offspring of 804 Sqn.

 

As the FAA had very few Sea Hurricanes in that period (and Far East Buffalos were still an untried asset - just for a few more weeks), trialling the use of B-339Bs aboard Eagle does not seem an exceedingly odd idea. Assuming a two-aircraft fighter flight would have to deal mainly with enemy reconnaissance or bomber aircraft, the B-339B was still acceptably fast, manoeuvrable and with reasonable firepower for this purpose. In December 1941 the fighter squadron aboard USS Lexington (VF-2) was equipped with 18 F2A-3. The ex-Belgian B-339Bs, being derived from the F2A-2, would probably be better performers.

Maybe initially there was an intention to test AS423 and BB450 as shipboard fighters, possibly the scheme lapsing with the sinking of Ark Royal and the unexpected need to station Eagle with Force H.

 

Interestingly, Crosley expressly mentions arrester hooks, and any detail about the installation (that is, if it existed) would be extremely interesting, given that the Brewsters were de-navalised.

 

 

A pair of Buffaloes from 805 NAS were trialled aboard HMS Eagle in Alexandria harbour in 1941,....... and at least one of them took off and landed on aboard the stationary carrier. Here is one taking off,,,,,,,

Buffalo-EAGLE-Williams-diary.jpg

I am presuming that no arrester gear was retro fitted to these de navalised aircraft,...... however,... in one photo a displaced arrester wire could be seen under and behind the aircraft as it is pushed back,...... so,....... did they `free land' or was some sort of arrester gear fitted,...... even a British style A Frame?? 

Buffalo-on-Eagle-1941-E-B-Mackenzie-cour 

 

These photos are from the diary of E.B.Mackenzie and were sent to me courtesy of Crey Publishing for a book project which did not go ahead. 

 

The thinking behind it was to re equip the Eagle Fighter Flight with the type,...... but it was decided to retain the Sea Gladiator. 

 

Cheers

          Tony

Edited by tonyot
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My understanding is that the idea, as seen in the second photo, was to let the main gear engage the landing wire.  I can almost hear the pilots' reaction of "err..., uh...maybe no?"

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Given the general quality of Crosley's description I would say they had arrestor hooks. It's hard to believe a trained naval pilot would not know the difference between an arrestor hook and something else. This is scanned from the book referred to by @tonyot above. In the "dim light" the "light grey" may have been an equivalent version of TSS or whatever Brewster painted them.

 

I could not spend another night wondering what aircraft I would have to fly,

so I groped my way along the main deck until I carne to a steel door labelled

'Hangar Access'. I went in through the double doors into a dimly lit, steel-sided,

empty- cathedral of a place. There, in a far corner, I could see two Brewster

Buffaloes, painted in light grey paint. My heart missed a beat, particularly as I

saw that they were fitted with arrester hooks. I had heard terrible stories about

the Buffalo - and that it had the unreliable Cyclone engine and very poor flying

characteristics which made it particularly unsuitable as a deck-landing fighter.

Still, I thought, Their Lordships wouldn't ask anyone to do the impossible

straight off, and if we had to fly them they would give us time to learn. A tleast

they weren't biplanes. But I hardly slept that night" it must have been the

thought of doing battle with the Hun in a Buffalo!

Next morning, I heard the Captain's writer come in. He soon started to type

and I gave up the idea of trying to sleep. I suddenly realised that he of all men on

board would know exactly where 8l3F was and what type of aircraft they would

be flying.

“Ah”,he said, "you must be Sub-Lieutenant Crosley. I think you should be at

Arbroath, I’ll give you a travel warrant, sir,” and, in answer to my inquiry,

"They fly Hurricanes"

Music to my ears. I could withstand any privation. clirnb any mountain, ford

any stream, so long as there was a Sea Hurricane to fly at the end of it.

Two days later, after many vicissitudes, I arrived at Arbroath on the east

coast of Scotland. There, the wardroom secretary told me that 813 Squadron's

mail was being redirected to Macrihanish. This was another RN Air station

north of Campbeltown at the southern end of the Mull of Kintyre - on the

other side of Scotland.

 

Edited by Ed Russell
Proof reading correction - see below.
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6 hours ago, tonyot said:

AS423 and BB450

For what it's worth Jos Heyman's production list of Buffalos gives the following information about these two.

 

Completed with c/n 77, type 339B

Test registration probably NX77B

Intended for Belgian AF but no Belgian serial was assigned; not delivered Ref: 7

Shipped by HMS Furious from Halifax, Canada Ref: 45

Assembled at Burtonwood, Britain Ref: 45

Delivered to RAF assumed with serial AS423 in ranges AS410/430, AX811/820 and

BB450; delivery date not known Ref: 5, 6

Operated by 759 Sqn Ref: 45

Operated by 804 Sqn Ref: 45

 

Completed with c/n 95, type 339B

Test registration probably NX95B

Intended for Belgian AF but no Belgian serial was assigned; not delivered Ref: 7

Shipped by HMS Furious from Halifax, Canada Ref: 45

Assembled at Burtonwood, Britain Ref: 45

Delivered to RAF assumed with serial BB450 in ranges AS410/430, AX811/820 and

BB450; delivery date not known Ref: 5, 6

Operated by 759 Sq Ref: 45

Operated by 761 Sq Ref: 45

Operated by 804 Sq Ref: 45

 

References

5 Source: Kyosti Partonen, via Luc Wittemans, 29 Jan 02

6 E-mail from Luc Wittemans, 29 Jan 2002 states that AS431/437 were not for Brewster Buffalo aircraft. Furthermore, the aircraft identified in these serial ranges are one more that there are serials.

7 E-mail from Luc Wittemans, 18 Jan 2002: no Belgian serials are known.

45 C/n listing by Peter Ashdown, provided 1 November 2006

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9 hours ago, jimmaas said:

I can almost hear the pilots' reaction of "err..., uh...maybe no?

 

Why yes, Sir, I'd love the opportunity to somersault on landing, or collapse the gear and slide into the island, or ground loop, or smash up the prop. Sign me up, Sir.

Or, it's the punishment for beating up the CO's house on a Sunday.

 

Unless they rigged a series of hooks to the landing gear, a-la the Boeing F3B.

 

Either way, everybody loves a (potentially injurious) challenge...

 

Edited by Blimpyboy
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So Crosley says "I went in through the double doors into a dimly lit, steel-sided, empty- cathedral of a place. There, in a far corner, I could see two Brewster Buffaloes, painted in light grey paint. My heart missed a treat, particularly as I saw that they were fitted with arrester hooks."

 

The Beglian Buffaloes didn't have arrester hooks. So what then did he actually see in that dimly lit far corner, which still was close and bright enough to see the hooks?

 

One also wonders about his "terrible stories about the Buffalo - and that it had the unreliable Cyclone engine and very poor flying characteristics", when a navy pilot who'd actually flown it (805 Sq commander Black) said it was manoeuvrable, a delight to fly, and a great fighter but for the lack of replacement parts. Perhaps Crosley heard those stories much later, the experience of RAF's Pacific Buffalo pilots, six months after the RN quit theirs in the Med ... but then how did they cost him a night's sleep long before?

 

Edited by 48-Alone-Is-Great
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1 hour ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

My heart missed a treat

Ooops, crappy proof reading of the scan. It should be beat not treat. Your questions are quite pertinent. Having re-read the book, my impression is that Crosley is pretty reliable in terms of chronology.

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