FAA Brewster Buffalo's

[Spitfires Forever]

Greetings

I was reading in my copy of Osprey's Aces of the FAA and it mentioned that the FAA briefly used the venerable (or vulnerable depending how you look at it) Brewster Buffalo. I have a few Tamiya kits in my stash and decided the FAA Buffalo would be a great subject to build. The only picture available shows a appearently ground looped Buff on its back. It shows the roundel and the serial number but that is all. I am assuming the plane in question is painted in the standard temperate land scheme used at the time but not sure if the lower surface was in the pre B of B black and white scheme. If anyone has further information and/or pictures of the aircraft it would be great if someone can help me out on this 

Cheers

 

 

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello!

I understand FAA received B-339B aircraft, ordered by Belgium. They were send to 805 Sqn. in Egypt, according to Phil H. Listemann's book The Brewster Buffalo (Phileditions). Here is the photo of one of the aircraft, B-339B AX815, found on Asiszbis page here:

According to this page this is actually RAAF aircraft. However, 805 squadron number sounds very much like FAA and too high for Australians. There is another photo in Listemann's book, showing B-339B AS420 with sailors posing on her wings. Unfortunately, I was not able to find that photo on the web. Cheers

Jure

[EwenS]

Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939 to 1945 lists 27 FAA Buffalos with the RN, 26 of which came from Belgian orders. These were serialled AS412,413,415-427 and AX810-820. The odd machine was BB450.

 

They were used by 759, 760, 804and 885 squadrons in Britain and 805 in the Middle East.

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks for the info. The paint scheme on the Buff in the picture looks to be either a sun bleached TLS or the desert cammo of Middle Stone, Dark Earth and Azure Blue. The bleached scheme probably makes the most sense. If I remember correctly the Belgian scheme was different from the MAP schemes for the RAF and RAAF. Should be an interesting project. It would be interesting to read the history of the unit involved. So much history/models and so little time!

Cheers

[jimmaas]

You are correct that the Belgian scheme was not the same as the MAP scheme ('A' and 'B') used on British order Buffalos.  It was similar but different, and the colors do not seem the same, as here: LINK

 

 The undersurfaces were originally aluminum lacquer (same as the USN prewar and delivery scheme for the Finnish Buffalos.  I suspect the undersurfaces were repainted in FAA service.  There is a cover painting for a period magazine that shows a baby blue undersurface for a Brewster in a clearly Middle East setting.  Also, the location for roundels was different from the British order, so make sure you're looking at an ex-Belgian aircraft.  There are more pictures at LINK2  and although they were not much use at Crete, they did see combat over the Western Desert - on unfortunate MP being shot down in one.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

   link to bm thread

 

 https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235072195-172nd-h-hobby-ex-hasegawa-brewster-buffalo-805-nas-egypt-1941nas/

 

 

 

& 

 

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Allies/3-UK/07-Maritime-Planes/Brewster-Buffalo/Brewster-Buffalo-Mk1.htm

 

cheers

    jerry 

Edited September 30, 2021 by brewerjerry

[Hook]

This Hobby 2000 reboxing of Hasegawa's Buffalo has two 805 Squadron options, the instructions may provide some pointers:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/nl/kits/hobby-2000-72012-brewster-339b-c-buffalo--1235225

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

[LDSModeller]

14 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

FAA Buffalo would be a great subject to build.

These might be of Help (though doesn't really show off camouflage that well)?

 

805 Sqn Buffalo

 

805 Sqn Buffalo -1

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Biggles81]

15 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello!

I understand FAA received B-339B aircraft, ordered by Belgium. They were send to 805 Sqn. in Egypt, according to Phil H. Listemann's book The Brewster Buffalo (Phileditions). Here is the photo of one of the aircraft, B-339B AX815, found on Asiszbis page here:

According to this page this is actually RAAF aircraft. However, 805 squadron number sounds very much like FAA and too high for Australians. There is another photo in Listemann's book, showing B-339B AS420 with sailors posing on her wings. Unfortunately, I was not able to find that photo on the web. Cheers

Jure

It is probably a mistaken belief arising from the transfer of the 805 Sqn numberplate from the Royal Navy to the Royal Australian Navy Fleet Air Arm after WWII. Either way never RAAF.

[MACALAIN]

My point of view of the subject in 1/72

 

Alain

[jimmaas]

6 hours ago, Hook said:

This Hobby 2000 reboxing of Hasegawa's Buffalo has two 805 Squadron options, the instructions may provide some pointers:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/nl/kits/hobby-2000-72012-brewster-339b-c-buffalo--1235225

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Never saw that version before.  Note that all the versions lack the ventral window, but that should be present.  Only the F2A-3 had no ventral window (and theFinnish 239' gradually plated them over after mid-1942) .  As to the use of the DSG/EDSG scheme, I guess it is possible, but would they have bothered?

 

[Spitfires Forever]

Is it possible that upon arrival at the airbase or MTU that the Brewster's in question were repainted in FAA TSS colors? This is always the conundrum when it comes to black and white photos. If worse comes to worst then ai will default to the FAA scheme. I wonder if the aircraft were given to the RAF after the squadrons were sent back to sea? I can't imagine the FAA using them for carrier ops, plus I can't find any reference to that.From what ai have read the undercarriage on the Brewster wasn't much better than that of the Seafire making it a potential nightmare trying to get parts from Brewster who at the time were having supply and other issues with the US Navy.

Cheers

[Graham Boak]

I haven't seen any comments on the Buffalo's undercarriage: given the list of complaints about it that I have seen this is perhaps surprising.  However as these examples also lacked other carrier equipment such as an arrester hook or accelerator (catapult) pick-ups, it isn't surprising that the FAA didn't try carrier operations.  I'd be very surprised to see them in TSS: in the early stages of the war many land-based FAA units retained TLS.  Given the wide range of appearances that TSS can present, the photos of those in the Middle East, including those left on Crete, I'd expect to see rather more variation in contrast.  TLS was also still common in the Middle East at this time, the Desert colours being used for those aircraft sent forward into the Western Desert front line as opposed to those retained in Egypt, Sudan, Palestine, Iraq or sent to Greece.

[Spitfires Forever]

That makes sense to me so perhaps the TLS scheme more bleached out to show fading from the intense sun exposure will be the call. The decals will be the next challenge.

Cheers

[dogsbody]

Some photos from the IWM:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=Brewster Buffalo&pageSize=&media-records=records-with-media&style=image

 

 

 

 

Chris

[tonyot]

I see one of my posts has been linked here,......... re the query about carrier ops,...... yes,..... the Buffalo was trialled aboard HMS Eagle in Alexandria harbour to see if they could use them to replace the Sea Gladiator`s of the Eagle`s Fighter Flight,..... this was despite the fact that these aircraft were land plane versions and were not delivered with an arrester hook. That said,..... a photo showing the Buffalo after landing does show a displaced arrester wire,.... so was one converted,...... who knows?

Cheers

           Tony

Edited October 1, 2021 by tonyot

[ClaudioN]

21 hours ago, tonyot said:

That said,..... a photo showing the Buffalo after landing does show a displaced arrester wire,.... so was one converted,...... who knows?

In the In Action book on the Buffalo Jim Maas says the arresting wires were engaged with the undercarriage. Unsurprisingly, the arrangement was found to be unsatisfactory in trials on HMS Eagle.

 

Does anybody know how the B-339Bs arrived in Egypt? The first shipment to Britain arrived on HMS Furious in July 1940 (28 serials allocated: AS410-AS437, less the six aircraft stranded on Martinique and one to Belgium, 21 aircraft went aboard the carrier), followed by a second group of 11 (AX810-AX820) that might have arrived around August 1940. "Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939 to 1945" makes no mention of previous RAF service for this second batch, maybe they were shipped on directly to Egypt?

[gingerbob]

According to AIR 19/524: Belgian Buffalo arrivals in UK from North America:

 

July '40: 21 (of which 19 "to Service", followed by 1 in Sept, 11 Oct, and 2 Apr '41)

Aug 11

Sept 1

Jan '41: 2

 

The only Buffaloes (as I have recorded, at least) shipped direct North America to overseas went to the Far East/India from Feb '41.

[48-Alone-Is-Great]

Here another one of AX815, from Couston's book, makes an interesting diorama.

 

I've always interpreted the colours as the US version of Belgian Dark Earth and Dark Green, plus the original alu-dope painted over with British Sky, and Belgian serials (rudder) painted over with British colours.

 

[Graham Boak]

The AX810-820 batch are simply described in Air britain's RAF Serials as "from Belgian contract to Admiralty" so no previous RAF service.

 

If I may divert somewhat, does anyone know which Buffalos were sent to the Eagle squadrons for trials, and did they ever get unit codes?  I suspect not.

[2996 Victor]

4 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

Here another one of AX815, from Couston's book, makes an interesting diorama.

 

I've always interpreted the colours as the US version of Belgian Dark Earth and Dark Green, plus the original alu-dope painted over with British Sky, and Belgian serials (rudder) painted over with British colours.

 

What a fabulous photograph! It would certainly make a fascinating diorama with the Stuart in the Caunter Camouflage scheme!

 

Cheers,

Mark

[jimmaas]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The AX8

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 

If I may divert somewhat, does anyone know which Buffalos were sent to the Eagle squadrons for trials, and did they ever get unit codes?  I suspect not.

Well, there's an illustration.  I'm away from files but I'll try to post later.

[ClaudioN]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The AX810-820 batch are simply described in Air britain's RAF Serials as "from Belgian contract to Admiralty" so no previous RAF service.

Also for the AS410-430 batch no detail of RAF service is mentioned.

At least one Buffalo is reported with 805 Sqn from 1 January 1941, the day the unit was formed. Buffaloes seem to have been part of the squadron complement from the start, indeed two of them were marked '7Y' and '7Z'. Fulmars of 805 Sqn arrived via Takoradi, but somehow this seems unlikely for the Buffaloes.

[Graham Boak]

With no convoys through the Mediterranean other than very special occasions, they didn't bother shipping aircraft all the way around Africa into the Red Sea.  All aircraft from Britain were delivered via Takoradi.  It was intended to deliver US-built aircraft direct to the Red Sea, but because of the war in East Africa the area was declared a war zone and US shipping was excluded.  Perhaps there was a fast convoy sent through the Med. to deliver tanks for an offensive in the desert, onto which a few cases of Buffalos could be loaded, but ...I think it most likely that the Buffalos followed the same route as all the other aircraft from Britain, including Tomahawks. 

[jimmaas]

The Brewsters that made it to the Middle East went through Takoradi or in one case seemed to stay there - AS426 was in Britain in 1940 A&AEE, then to #1  FAA Test Flight, then to Takoradi 5-41 and became instructional airframe A-39.  AS417 went to the RAF and then when SOC, to the FAA as instructional airframe A-37.  Several of the AX batch went to 805 Squadron but AX813, AX814, AX817, AX818 and AX820 are noted as "discarded upon 805 Sdn moving to western Desert August 1941"  That may have included some tidying up of rosters.  AX813 was lost in combat on June 17th, 1941, to a I/JG-27 Bf-109E over the Western Desert.  The pilot, Lt. Lloyd Keith, survived to be captured, but later died from his injuries.  AX815 survived for quite a while, until it was SOC October 24, 1943...as a result of a forced landing at 307 MU in Lahore, India!