P-47 and P-51 drop tanks.. (And P-38s..)

[Paramedic]

..thought I had a good knowledge about these. But it turned out I am a bit confused!

 

I do know about the 75 gallon, metal drop tank, used by both aircraft. And then there is the 108 gallon paper one 8from the British?) and the P-47 also had a paper tank at 200 gallon as well as a metal one of (about) the same size. The paper one could not be used at too high an altitude but the metal one could.

 

Where I got confused is, there are the bigger wing tanks (that are not made from laminated papaer9, used mainly (?) in the pacific. I thought they were 100 and 150 gallons. But I see other numbers (Eduard call them 110 and 165 gallon, if they are the same tanks?). Are we talking different gallons or different tanks? 😕

 

Anyone have asimple way to line them up?  I am reading at so many places and see some conflicting things so it is hard to get a good picture. if I had one, reliable source it would not confuse me as much..

 

And if I rememebr correctly, 75 and 108 gallon pairs were used on P-47s and P-51s in ETO. P-47s also used the 200 gallon belly tank there.P-47s used bigger metal tanks on the wings too, that 11-110 one?  But did  P-51s use bigger wing tanksin ETO too?

 

In the Pacific they used those big pairs for VLR fmissions from Iwo Jima or example. The biggest one for P-51s when they also had HVARs? P-47Ns always used the biggest ones. And I think these are those big ones Eduard call "165gal"?

 

 

So what was it the P-38s used? iirc they used one big and one small during Operation Vengeance (proper name for it!) - !110gal" and "165gal"? or am I missing something, confusing tanks?

 

(I did a search and found some info but it did not clear everything up -atleast not yet, I´ve not read through every thread..)

 

 

[72modeler]

Do these help?

Mike

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/paper-fuel-tanks.16029/

 

https://archive.aeroscale.net/forums/192898/

 

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/ww2-aircraft-drop-tank-question.425984/

 

http://www.station131.co.uk/55th/Maintenance Images Page.htm

[Paramedic]

Quick look - yes! I think I had a decent idea of them. Seems like the volume messed me up a bit.. I´ll read through them thoguh! Many thanks!

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Roger Freeman, Mighty Eighth War Manual,  Fighter external tanks, US Gallons nominal/actual, drop tanks available to the 8th Air Force
75/84, Steel, US, P-47 and P-51 originally for P-39
108/108, Steel, UK, P-47
108/108, Paper, UK, P-47 and P-51, originally for Hurricanes
110/110, Steel, US P-51, intended for P-47 use.
150/165, Steel, US, P-47, "flat" tank
150/165, Steel, UK, P-47, "flat" tank
165/165, Steel, US, P-38, ferry tank, unpressurised, used up to 20,000 feet.
200/205, Paper, US, P-47, ferry tank, unpressurised.
200/215, Steel, UK, P-47.

 

Francis Dean, America's Hundred Thousand.

The P-38 also had 300 gallon ferry tanks.  P-47D ranges are given for 300 and 410 gallons of external fuel. P-47N range is given for 440 gallons of external fuel. P-51 ranges are given for 150, 220 and 300 gallons of external fuel.

 

General Kenny reports hanging a pair of 300 gallon drop tanks of P-47D while commissioning 150 gallon external tanks from an Australian supplier.

 

As of January 1944 the British report building (imperial gallons) 90 gallon metal and paper tanks for P-47 and planning to built a 150 gallon metal one.
By July the 90 gallon had become 108 US gallon for P-47 and P-51 and the 150 gallon was in fact US gallons for the P-47.

[Paramedic]

Thanks!

Those 300 gallon tanks for the P-38 - those were the ones that were also rebuilt and used to transport patients?

 

And i had forgot those papertanks were for Hurricane at first. And I have even built a night intruder with it...

[RainierHooker]

As regards the steel 165 gallon tanks, they were used as "drop" tanks on P-38s, but also used as ferry tanks on P-47s...

 

 

 

They were even later fitted with fuses and used as napalm canisters.

 

 

The same tanks were also used by several larger aircraft as drop and ferry tanks. They show up occasionally in pictures of PV-1s and other similar twin engined patrol aircraft. They are easy to spot because of their recurved teardrop shape in the back half and the pinch-welded seam that runs longitudinally at the 6 and 12 o clock positions.

 

I've even got one hanging from my garage...

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by RainierHooker
grammar

[Paramedic]

Oh, nice! More great pics - thank you!

Wish I had something cool like that at home!

[72modeler]

14 hours ago, RainierHooker said:

As regards the steel 165 gallon tanks, they were used as "drop" tanks on P-38s, but also used as ferry tanks on P-47s...

Am I seeing things? In that last photo you posted, I see TP-47D-28-RA on the data block, and I think the serial is 42-28610. That serial, if I have it right, would make it  from the third batch of Evansville built P-47D's, but the 'TP' on  the data block is what confuses me. If the serial is indeed -610, and it is a two-seater, it doesn't match the information on the Joe Baugher website which stated that Curtiss modified two D models at the factory into two seaters, but I would think they would have had TP-47G on the data block. Or, maybe the 'T' was a mistake or stood for 'type,' which doesn't make any sense, either! What say you, @Tbolt? Is this a great hobby or what?

Mike

[RainierHooker]

I'm guessing that the aircraft had been designated as a stateside trainer (possibly with equipment modifications, radios, armament differences, et al) but was not a two-seater. I've seen some "TP-40N" aircraft listed on several accident reports late and post war, so there must have been some sort of trainer modification system short of the factory produced variants.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Taken Verbatim from UNITED STATES MILITARY AIRCRAFT by Jos Heyman.  Air Force F = Fighter (1924 - 1962) Mentions of trainer P-47

 

The P-47D was similar to the P-47C and 12604 were built with serials 42-7953/8702, 42-22250/23299, 42-25274/27384, 42-27389/29466, 42-74615/76614, 43-25254/25753, 44-19558/21107, 44-32668/33867, 44-89684/90483 and 45-49090/49554. A batch with serials 45-49555/49974 was cancelled. A number of the aircraft were supplied to the RAF, Brazil, USSR and Mexico and some were fitted with the R-2800-59 engine. A number of aircraft were converted as TP-47D trainers. Serials included 42-8028, 42-8035, 42-8084, 42-8141, 42-8166, 42-8197, 42-8245, 42-8270, 42-8283, 42-8287, 42-8301, 42-8334, 42-8531, 42-22315, 42-22320, 42-22333, 42-22360, 42-22415, 42-22440, 42-22615, 42-22621, 42-22711, 42-22864, 42-22877, 42-22878, 42-22993, 42-23121, 42-26172, 42-27606, 42-27805, 42-27814, 42-28708, 42-28711, 42-28725, 42-29065, 42-29107, 42-29218, 42-29221, 42-29389, 42-29391, 42-29408, 42-74838, 42-74861, 42-75467, 42-75469, 42-75477, 42-75481, 42-76377, 43-25270, 43-25273, 44-20207, 44-32680, 44-32699, 44-32798, 44-32802, 44-32804, 44-90126, 44-90258, 44-90264, 44-90270, 44-90373, 44-90468, 45-49219, 45-49250, 42-49295, 45-49386 and 45-49514. Those P-47Ds remaining in service on 11 June 1948 were redesignated as F-47D.

 

The P-47G version was similar to the P-47D and 354 with serials 42-24920/25273 were built by Curtiss-Wright. Four of these, 42-24972, 42-25068, 42-25266 and 42-25267, were converted with a second cockpit as TP-47G.

 

The XP-47N was a P-47D (42-27387) fitted with a different wing, giving it a span of 42'10", 13.06 m, length of 36'2", 11.02 m. It had a R-2800-57 engine. The production version, P-47N had a span of 42'7", 12.98 m, a length of 36'1", 11.00 and a R-2800-77 engine and 1816 were built with serials 44-87784/89450 and 45-49975/50123. Aircraft with serials 44-89451/89683 and 45-50124/53574 were cancelled. Those remaining in service on 11 June 1948 were redesignated as F-47N. A number of P-47Ns were converted as TP-47N. They had serials 44-89107, 44-89322 and 44-89404 and on 11 June 1948 those remaining in service were redesignated as TF-47N.

[72modeler]

@RainierHooker and @Geoffrey Sinclair,

 

What you both posted about TP-47D's makes a lot of sense, but since 42-28610 isn't on the list of aircraft modified as a trainer posted by him, I am guessing maybe the subject in the photo was simply a P-47D-28 that had its data block altered to indicate its use as a trainer. Possibly because fighter aircraft used as advanced trainers would be fully armed and not modified? Fascinating subject, nonetheless.

Mike

[Tbolt]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:51 PM, 72modeler said:

Am I seeing things? In that last photo you posted, I see TP-47D-28-RA on the data block, and I think the serial is 42-28610. That serial, if I have it right, would make it  from the third batch of Evansville built P-47D's, but the 'TP' on  the data block is what confuses me. If the serial is indeed -610, and it is a two-seater, it doesn't match the information on the Joe Baugher website which stated that Curtiss modified two D models at the factory into two seaters, but I would think they would have had TP-47G on the data block. Or, maybe the 'T' was a mistake or stood for 'type,' which doesn't make any sense, either! What say you, @Tbolt? Is this a great hobby or what?

Mike

 

 

I don't really know much, or have much info on the TP-47's, but like the others have said a trainer doesn't necessarily mean a two seater and I've never seen a two seat bubbletop P-47.

 

Anyway here's a couple of more shot's of 28610 I found on my PC.

 

 

 

[Paramedic]

Thanks, that´s really nice!

 

My nice dad handed back some books I left for him to read a few years ago..

 

 

 

And then I ordered the "Tales of Iwo Jim" Eduard box. plus AM for various P-47s (planned Tamiya 1/48s). P-47N (Revell) on its way here,. SO all the info will be very helpful!

 

Saw in the Eduard instructions that the 110 gallons were standard for P-51Ds on VLR.. 165 if rockets as someone mentioned. Would it be wrong with just 165 gallon ones though?

And I presume P-47Ns flew with 165 period? Bigger fuel guzzlers and all..

 

 

[Tbolt]

6 hours ago, Paramedic said:

Thanks, that´s really nice!

 

My nice dad handed back some books I left for him to read a few years ago..

 

 

 

And then I ordered the "Tales of Iwo Jim" Eduard box. plus AM for various P-47s (planned Tamiya 1/48s). P-47N (Revell) on its way here,. SO all the info will be very helpful!

 

Saw in the Eduard instructions that the 110 gallons were standard for P-51Ds on VLR.. 165 if rockets as someone mentioned. Would it be wrong with just 165 gallon ones though?

And I presume P-47Ns flew with 165 period? Bigger fuel guzzlers and all..

 

 

 

 

P-47N's normal drop tank config was 165 gal tanks under the wings with sometimes a 75 gal or 110 gal teardrop tank under the belly. The P-47N wing tanks gave it an extra 900 miles of range giving it a 1705 mile total range, so it had fairly good range anyway, but by the time you add three external tanks it was a pretty impressive distance they could fly.

[72modeler]

7 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

but by the time you add three external tanks it was a pretty impressive range they had.

Which, IIRC, is one of the reasons that the N had an auto pilot installed and armrests on the seat. Bet it still meant  for a numb bum after sitting on that seat pack chute and life raft for all those hours!

Mike

[Paramedic]

No cup holder, beer cooler or a fridge?? Maybe a TV..

 

Hmm - I have a revell P-47N on the way.. I think I should add that belly tank as well to those two 165 gallon ones..! Will make it look cool, I think..

 

 

2 Big Too Heavy of course! Late "variant" with both pin-ups!

 

The Kits World is for a Tamiya-kit..

[Tbolt]

1 hour ago, Paramedic said:

No cup holder, beer cooler or a fridge?? Maybe a TV..

 

Hmm - I have a revell P-47N on the way.. I think I should add that belly tank as well to those two 165 gallon ones..! Will make it look cool, I think..

 

 

2 Big Too Heavy of course! Late "variant" with both pin-ups!

 

The Kits World is for a Tamiya-kit..

 

Yes I like the look with all the tanks. Here's my Tamiya P-47N.

 

 

[72modeler]

44 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

Here's my Tamiya P-47N.

Jeez, Louise- that's the bee's knees! I was not aware that Tamiya did a 1/48 P-47N. (Did they rebox the Academy or Revell/Monogram   kit?)

Mike

 

My favorite has always been "Ready Ruth" with the blue bands. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Tbolt]

50 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Jeez, Louise- that's the bee's knees! I was not aware that Tamiya did a 1/48 P-47N. (Did they rebox the Academy or Revell/Monogram   kit?)

Mike

 

My favorite has always been "Ready Ruth" with the blue bands. 

 

Thanks. It's the Tamiya P-47M with a bit of conversion work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paramedic]

That´s really impressive, I love it! ❤️ Nice ly modded!

 

I was just about to refresh my memory about the wheel well colours of P-47s. I think i got that answered already!

 

[Paramedic]

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/90563-p-47-questions/

Interesting. :)

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, Tbolt said:

It's the Tamiya P-47M with a bit of conversion work.

A bit of modification you say? That's impressive work, TB! I appreciate the post, as I was wondering how the heck I could have missed a new Tamiya P-47N kit in either scale! Unless we get a better 1/72 P-47N kit in 1/72 scale, I was going to cut  the required 18" wing extension from the inner wings of one Tamiya kit and mate them to the wings of another; fix the aileron chord like you did, and make a new dorsal fin strake. Need to make a correct N cockpit, using the  seat and instrument panel from the Sword kit., as well as correct 8-spoke wheels.

Mike

 

That's the nicest N I have seen so far! 

[Tbolt]

28 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

A bit of modification you say? That's impressive work, TB! I appreciate the post, as I was wondering how the heck I could have missed a new Tamiya P-47N kit in either scale! Unless we get a better 1/72 P-47N kit in 1/72 scale, I was going to cut  the required 18" wing extension from the inner wings of one Tamiya kit and mate them to the wings of another; fix the aileron chord like you did, and make a new dorsal fin strake. Need to make a correct N cockpit, using the  seat and instrument panel from the Sword kit., as well as correct 8-spoke wheels.

Mike

 

That's the nicest N I have seen so far! 

 

Thanks. The P-47N is certainly lacking in both scales, we might have to wait till Eduard get around to doing the P-47 before we get a decent one.

[Tbolt]

3 hours ago, Paramedic said:

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/90563-p-47-questions/

Interesting. :)

If you are referring to the split drop tank, yes nice to see someone is producing them as I need one for one of my builds, shame they are in the US though.

[Paramedic]

Yeah, the split tank. Just stumbled over that..

 

Hopefully Eduard makes a P-47 series in the future, yes.. Should be a smart move, so many nice-looking subjects to make decals for..