Mi Tasol Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 Some may find this of interest. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 That is the C/C1 standard, as described in Bowyer, Michael J F. Fighting Colours; RAF fighter camouflage and markings, 1937–1969. Interesting to see that the communiqué is sent in May 1942 and the accepted date seems to be June/July 1942. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 So issued by the Air Ministry to all commands on 30 April 1942, who then have to ensure it is transmitted all the way down to squadron level, who then have to find the time to repaint the aircraft in between operational sorties. The instruction is to introduce them “...as early as possible on all aircraft.” So without email (😉) it probably was into June if not July before it actually began to be implemented on the front line and seen on aircraft. And the circulation list at the bottom only seems to cover U.K. based Commands. So there must have been other communications covering overseas Commands, particularly the Middle East, and aircraft manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 These other means were called cables, and the Ministry was perfectly capable of contacting lower commands effectively instantaneously - allowing for time typing the commands in and then taking the output to the relevant officer. There will have been some delay for coding/decoding, perhaps. How long it took to take action on the instruction is another matter, but over two months seems grossly excessive:. Particularly at a time of fairly low operational demand in the UK. Not all squadrons were in the front line, not all of these were flying every day. It would be another matter for DAF units operating "out in the Blue", which would depend upon replacement aircraft arriving in the new roundels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DStewart Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 It's interesting that somebody thought that instructions on the size and colours of markings to identify yourself to the enemy should be marked secret! "No, we mustn't let Jerry know what our public identification marks are, he might identify us!" I know you can deduce some details of the high level command structure of the RAF from it, but presumably this was already well know to the Germans and of no intelligence value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 One of the comments passed about changes to colours and markings was that it should be carried out as soon as possible to prevent any attempts by the enemy to fool us by the use of false colours. The use of markings were much less to identify yourself to the enemy as to identify yourself to your own side. Not that it seems to have helped a lot. However, the purpose of this particular change was to reduce the overall visibility of the markings, and thus prevent early identification at a distance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilj Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 The stated requirement for "duck egg blue" was clearly a statement to confuse the enemy as the colour most frequently used was in no way blue or even bluish. No doubt this saved the lives of many aircrew as their attackers held their fire as they paused to debate the true identity of the codes colour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 On 9/27/2021 at 10:12 AM, EwenS said: So issued by the Air Ministry to all commands on 30 April 1942, who then have to ensure it is transmitted all the way down to squadron level, who then have to find the time to repaint the aircraft in between operational sorties. The instruction is to introduce them “...as early as possible on all aircraft.” So without email (😉) it probably was into June if not July before it actually began to be implemented on the front line and seen on aircraft. And the circulation list at the bottom only seems to cover U.K. based Commands. So there must have been other communications covering overseas Commands, particularly the Middle East, and aircraft manufacturers. Dont forget the availability of paint may be a factor. Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malpaso Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 9 hours ago, ilj said: The stated requirement for "duck egg blue" was clearly a statement to confuse the enemy as the colour most frequently used was in no way blue or even bluish. No doubt this saved the lives of many aircrew as their attackers held their fire as they paused to debate the true identity of the codes colour. And “everybody” now knows he must have meant to type “Sky” ; which it doesn’t look like either! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Selwyn said: Dont forget the availability of paint may be a factor. Selwyn I came across a comment in the old Ducimus publication on the Spitfire that noted that while the AM instruction was dated 30 April, the “Spitfire drawings”, presumably at the factories, weren’t updated until 21 May 1941. Never doubt the ability of bureaucracy to slow things down!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 On 27/09/2021 at 14:14, 3DStewart said: It's interesting that somebody thought that instructions on the size and colours of markings to identify yourself to the enemy should be marked secret! "No, we mustn't let Jerry know what our public identification marks are, he might identify us!" I know you can deduce some details of the high level command structure of the RAF from it, but presumably this was already well know to the Germans and of no intelligence value. During wartime when your equipment keeps falling into enemy hands it seems a bit silly, but in times of corld war, when you are parading your newest missile (or whatever weapons system) to the public the precise knowledge of the identification markings might help your potential enemy to get a mor precise judgment of the entire size of your new toy (making estimations regarding range or other things based on the size more precise). With a new plane it might help your enemy to judge the wing span, giving him better guidance for setting his REVI and making ranging more effective (in case anybody believes it would matter in the heat of the battle). OK, as soon as a dozen of your new planes got shot down over enemy territory this "fifth digit behind the decimal point advantage" is gone, but maybe it just helped your side for two weeks and it saved one plane or one pilot's life and maybe your enemy had to go through the trouble (invest a tiny bit more manpower) of detailed analysis of wreckage. Who knows? In the end we know who won and who was unable to protect his secrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilneBay Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 Well I must admit that to me the official British marking was for the first few years of the war a large yellow circle when an aircraft was viewed from the side and an oblique angle in the air. For the last pre-war year this was for all surfaces, no matter the viewing position. After the introduction of these changes this then became a thin yellow circle when an aircraft was viewed from the side and an oblique angle in the air circle. 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fukuryu Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 On 9/29/2021 at 8:42 AM, EwenS said: I came across a comment in the old Ducimus publication on the Spitfire that noted that while the AM instruction was dated 30 April, the “Spitfire drawings”, presumably at the factories, weren’t updated until 21 May 1941. Never doubt the ability of bureaucracy to slow things down!! Never ones to be bothered by minor things like a war going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mi Tasol Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 All factories had, and still have, a Change Order system though not all call it that. Given the Air Ministry wanted the change ASAP the paint shop and Drawing Office were probably issued with a Change Order from management as soon as the AM letter was received at Supermarine. That way the change would be introduced immediately in production and the Drawing Office can make the change at leisure after higher priority work has been completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Interesting. Bob Sikkel and I (and I dare say others) have often wondered why the modification dates in Supermarine's register of modifications seem at times to be somewhat later than aircraft seen with the mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Well, I take the date that these mods are first discussed at the relevant meeting (the title of which I can't remember offhand!) as quite indicative, but subsequent dates I don't understand well enough to get much from. I also see the ever-popular "blame it on the uncaring bureaucrats" theme creeping in. Perhaps it is worth pointing out that these chaps were at times frustrated by how long it was taking Supermarine (or who-have-you) to make the latest ideas come to fruition. A change as significant (?) as new styles of roundels probably should be well coordinated, lest the eager young bucks file after-action reports such as, "The aircraft was wearing completely wrongly-proportioned "British" roundels, so I shot it down, deducing that it was being operated by the enemy." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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