Dassault Mirage F1

[Slater]

Overall, was this regarded as a successful design for Dassault? It was a departure from their usual delta-wing products.

[exdraken]

Definitely successful, no?

Exported a lot a also in French service until some years ago!

 

Actually Dassault worked on several non- delta designs back then, the Mirage G, or F2 etc...the F1 was the only economically viable design. (and every successful fighter before the Mirage was non delta .... Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere,, Etendard)

 

It solved the Mirage IIIs takeoff/ landing performance issues. In addition to increased range and manoubrability.

The Mirage 2000 FBW system allowed Dassault to go back to the delta wing.

 

I always see the F1 as a kind of pre-F-16... small, multirole, affordable, but too early for the F-16s deciding successful factors like FBW, wing to fuselage integration, LERX, ..

 

Also do not forget the F1s  strong landing gear for non optimal runway conditions!

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I think the moroccan airforce is still flying the Mirage F-1.Many ex armee de l'air and spanish airforce aircraft have been bought by private companies.They are using them as aggressor.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited September 27, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri

[HansReggelsen]

2 hours ago, exdraken said:

I always see the F1 as a kind of pre-F-16... small, multirole, affordable, but too early for the F-16s deciding successful factors like FBW, wing to fuselage integration, LERX, ..

 

If I remember correctly, the F1 was one of the contenders in what at the time was called (in Denmark at least!  ) "The Deal of the Century" were many NATO countries were looking to update their airforces..

The contenders were: Mirage F1, YF-16 (F-16), YF-17 (F-18) and the Viggen (Were there more? )

 

Cheers 

Hans J

[exdraken]

Ī

4 hours ago, HansReggelsen said:

If I remember correctly, the F1 was one of the contenders in what at the time was called (in Denmark at least!  ) "The Deal of the Century" were many NATO countries were looking to update their airforces..

The contenders were: Mirage F1, YF-16 (F-16), YF-17 (F-18) and the Viggen (Were there more? 

For the European contenders that was simply bad timing.... at least with hindsight, the F-16 proved itself as extremely versatile and especially up-gradeable! It definitely was a generation ahead...

 

Edit: by the way, the Mirage F1.M53 / F1E for the deal of the century was supposed to get the Mirage 2000s engine (M53), changing the game a slight bit.....

http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/dassault_mirage_f-1_m53.php

 

 

 

 

[Slater]

I think the F1 was one of the more attractive fighters of it's generation.

[exdraken]

2 hours ago, Slater said:

I think the F1 was one of the more attractive fighters of it's generation.

attractive - yes!

but did it have real competition in that respect?

Th MiG-23 definitely not (in my opinion )

The MiG-21 was a great fighter, but not attractive (and maybe already of the previous generation?)

The F-4 was a great fighter, but generally a brick (and maybe already of the previous generation?)

The F-5 maybe?

The Viggen was attractive, but a brute

And then there would be the rather different F-14 and eternally living F-15, arguably of the same generation...

 

did I miss something relevant?

 

 

 

if you like the F1, I highly recommend this pictorial book:

https://www.amazon.com/Dassault-Mirage-F1-Aircraft-Hawkins/dp/2960248899

great photos, great detail shots. perfect for the modeller

 

 

or some photos:

https://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/131356/233-south-africa-air-force-museum-dassault-mirage-f1/

 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/draken-buys-22-former-spanish-air-force-mirage-f1-fighters/

 

 

https://www.airfighters.com/aircraft-data/dassault-mirage-f1cr

 

 

https://www.airhistory.net/photos/0228067.jpg

 

https://world-defense.com/media/dassault-mirage-f1cr-jpg.107/

 

 

https://pilotemirage.skyrock.com/380815723-Voltige-Victor.html

 

 

https://www.defencetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/AIR_Mirage_F1s_France_lg.jpg

 

https://i.redd.it/fwim1e02gr551.jpg

[Slater]

Not really sure if it's from the same generation, but the SAAB Draken always struck me as a rather sharp-looking aircraft.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

In my opinion the Mig-21 especially the first series is a beautiful aircraft but tastes are different of course.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

[exdraken]

1 hour ago, Slater said:

Not really sure if it's from the same generation, but the SAAB Draken always struck me as a rather sharp-looking aircraft.

I would call the Draken a different (2nd?) generation aircraft, together with Mirage III, Lightning, and MiG-21 (and Su-7/9), and the US cenenary series (F-100-F106) as being the first true supersonic fighters by country, manufacturer, etc....

[kiseca]

Seems to have struggled in combat, but to me one of the most beautiful aircraft made. And certainly a success, in terms of numbers sold and time spent in service. I think it was capable but not outstanding and often found itself matched against more modern, more capable opponents.

[exdraken]

1 hour ago, kiseca said:

Seems to have struggled in combat, but to me one of the most beautiful aircraft made. And certainly a success, in terms of numbers sold and time spent in service. I think it was capable but not outstanding and often found itself matched against more modern, more capable opponents.

struggled in combat.... maybe!

 

1 hour ago, Beermonster1958 said:

How does one measure "success"?. Its a very subjective issue. If you ask 50 different people, you will probably get 50 different answers.

It was built in quite large numbers (about 750 I think?)  was exported in decent numbers and equipped 14 air forces. That's at least some measure if success.

It hasn't seen a lot of combat but, its effectiveness would surely be down more to the skills and operational efficiency of the operator rather than the aircraft itself?

 

 

 

summarizing out of my head:

 

combat:

• rather successful in Ecuador against Peruian Su-22s (Cenepa conflict) (limited air-combat)
• Challenges of SAAF Mirages in air to air combat against (mostly) Cuban flown Angolan MiG-23s (mutual losses, maybe the most interesting conflict as equipment and success similar on both sides)
• Iraq vs. Iran: limited success in air to air, main job was ground attack and anti shipping though (opponents were a mix of F-5, F-4, F-14s mostly) the remaining airworthy Iraqi Mirages are all in limited Iranian service now! The Iraqi EQ5 and EQ6 where already really potent multi role fighters! Not sure if they had an as capable equivalent back then. (maybe the F-4 in some aereas or the F/A-18?)
• Iraq vs US forces 1991: no chance, but no other plane would have fared any better I guess
• French use in Africa: limited conflicts/ skirmishes in Lybia, Tschad, Mali, etc... continuously used until retirement
• French use over Iraq, Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Lybia, etc... continuously used successful, mainly as ground attack and recce jet.
• Lybia big user, limited combat, still in limited service....
• Quatar: rather quick replacement with Mirage 2000-5, limited combat during Desert Storm
• Kuwait: unsuccessful use due to ~Iraqi invasion and payment troubles later on...... limited combat during Desert Storm (FREE Kuwait)

non combat:

• successful in Greece as Athes air-defence
• successful and long term use in Spain
• heavily upgraded and in continuous service in Morocco
• Jordan: long term use, no combat

maybe I missed somthing....

 

currently in heavy use as privately operated aggressors in the US by Draken and ATAC (mostly ex Spanish and French jets) (long term success? no idea if those jets can be efficiently operated, some accidents already)

 

 

[kiseca]

That sounds like a good summary, exdraken.

 

My impressions from the limited bits I've read about them in air-air combat (which my comment was specifically aimed at) is that it's not an aircraft that has often had a significant advantage over whatever opponent it was facing, and the impressions from the Angolan border war vs MiG-23, and the Iran - Iraq engagement were both that the F-1's struggles were mostly electronic.  This could be expected if it was the attack versions (A or AZ), which don't have radar, engaging with radar equipped MiGs. But I haven't checked if that is true or not. Similarly I'm pretty sure an F-14 can pick up and engage an F1C at a far greater distance than the F1 can respond at.

 

And support from infrastructure on the ground was probably a big factor in both, as would pilot training, but the aircraft itself undoubtedly makes a big difference. I think WW2 showed that very well and as technology has improved, the competency of the aircraft itself has taken a steadily bigger piece of the win / lose equation from the pilot.

 

My overall impression is that the F1 is an aircraft that can make a reasonable account for itself in the air but doesn't enjoy superiority over its contemporaries and frequently met opponents that were at least a match for it.

[kiseca]

Removed because I quoted myself instead of editing myself

Edited September 28, 2021 by kiseca

[junglierating]

21 hours ago, Slater said:

I think the F1 was one of the more attractive fighters of it's generation.

Agree ask a kid to draw a jet and that's what you get.😄

[exdraken]

2 hours ago, junglierating said:

Agree ask a kid to draw a jet and that's what you get.😄

indeed!

pointy nose, arrow-type wings, slender fuselage, vertical+ horizontal stabs, fiery rear end,

interestingly there is no other jet out there looking so close to the "IDEAL" jetfighter design....... the F-16 maybe.... or a MiG-23 with wings swung back

interesting, isn't it!

(the landing gear may be a bit on the awkward/ sturdy side....)

 

my quick sketch in paint...

 

 

 

[PLC1966]

A great looking jet.  Nothing else to add.

 

[Hook]

9 hours ago, exdraken said:

non combat:

• successful in Greece as Athes air-defence

It depends on your definition of non combat - they did tangle quite a bit with aircraft of their Turkish NATO allies under less than friendly circumstances.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Hook]

9 hours ago, exdraken said:

heavily upgraded and in continuous service in Morocco

I'm sure they were used operationally against Polisario guerillas. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[exdraken]

1 hour ago, Hook said:

I'm sure they were used operationally against Polisario guerillas. 

no idea actually.... I am not aware of an airforce action in this respect. any sources? would be interested! 

maybe also against Algerian forces/troops/ rebells on the other side of the Marroccan border?

this Westersn Sahara thing actually is interesting, but rather anachronistic as well....

 

 

1 hour ago, Hook said:

It depends on your definition of non combat - they did tangle quite a bit with aircraft of their Turkish NATO allies under less than friendly circumstances.

yes I know.... but combat is something else to me! this is more like an provocation resulting in an avoidable accident I guess!

 

I also did not include the NATO air policing in the baltics (French and Spanish F1s). live operations yes, but nothing else thes QRA in another country.

 

 

[Slater]

I have this kit on order.  Anyone have experience with it?

 

http://

[exdraken]

It 

14 hours ago, Slater said:

I have this kit on order.  Anyone have experience with it?

It is the standard ESCI F1 kit out there. Upgraded over the years to represent the CR/CT versions.

This box also has the large Iraqi banana ventral fuel tank included.

 

Coalition and nozzles are bad if you care! Wheels and Magic II missiles would also need replacement!

 

Builds into a nice kit all in all!

 

my more recent examples:

Italeri kit with lots of AM parts:

Italeri kit with lots of AM parts again:

 

Italeri kit with Scaleworx AZ conversion and some additional parts:

 

MY very first Italeri F1:

 

I think it is still the better kit out there, although the Kittyhawk kit is much more detailed.

If you are into super detailing you can try your luck on the Rflight upgrade set.... I will definitely do one day!

[kiseca]

I've got that one in my stash

 

So far my experience with it is limited to a quick look at the sprues....