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* UPDATED * Paul Lucas' "Colour Conundrum" articles published in SAM 2015 - 2021


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On 11/18/2021 at 11:58 AM, nicholas mayhew said:

 

an association with Vallejo somewhat devalues the book if it's meant to be either a serious scholarly look at things, but that notwithstanding, is there a link to the contents of the book?

 

my interests are quite specifically WWII - and in reality I'm only interested in this book for the Malta articles - so I'd like to know what it is covered but the Guideline site doesn't have anything useful as far as i can see?

 

 

 

On 11/19/2021 at 11:52 AM, lasermonkey said:

Thanks @Dave Swindell, that's very useful. I was rather looking forward to this, but not sure I'll go ahead now. Not using the correct nomenclature seems to me to completely defeat the point of the articles and is, IMO, an unfortunate and retrograde step.

 

On 11/19/2021 at 1:39 PM, Dave Swindell said:

I'd urge you to reconsider, if you're interested in the subject and haven't got the original articles (or even if you have but would prefer them in one concise volume) this is a worthwhile purchase. Apart from maybe reformatting the layout from magazine to book, I don't think the articles have been changed from the original publication. The reference to Vallejo colours is in the original articles, as seen by the Gladiator page posted above by Chris (Dogsbody). 

Some of the "colour chips" for some of the articles only reference Vallejo paints instead of giving full paint descriptions shown in the Gladiator article, however the correct colour nomenclature is called out in the profile descriptions. 

I'd much rather there was a colour cross reference page for all the colours in the book with corresponding MAP, BS, FS and model paint matches, and the body of the book only refer to the actual period colour descriptions, as including the Vallejo colour references throughout adds an unneeded extra layer of complexity, especially for a dyed in the wool stick in the mud enamel paint user. However SAM have taken an editorial decision (and no doubt commercial sponsorship deal), if that's what it takes to get these articles published then fine, all the relevant info is there. 

Hi Guys, I think I should explain that the Vallejo colour references are only at the end of each article and no mention is made of them within the text. Vallejo is a valued sponsor of the articles and we at SAM include their closest paint matches in a separate box at the end: it's not something that the author does. The articles themselves just talk about the RAF Stores Codes and the actual paint names.

Please remember these are Colour Conundrums not Model Paint Conundrums :) . I can see how including a cross referencing chart might be of use to some modellers, however I would caution that that also leaves the door open to subjective mixes of paints when no out-of-the-bottle option exists (never the mind the obvious points of contention that we see here on BM about which out-of-the-bottle shade matches a given colour best, the fact that no two paint manufactures seem to agree on a hue for a given colour anyway, and of course- how nothing has ever bettered Humbrol Authentics in the entire history of model paints ever, ever ;) ).

Everyone has their preferred paints, and many people will have a preferred shade, or notion, of what a colour should look like. I would suggest that while Paul often explores the highways and byways of aircraft paint schemes, that is his style and forté.

He researches the history, you can chose the paint.

I hope this clarifies the 'whys and whats', and we really do hope you enjoy the book.
Jonners




 

Edited by Jon Kunac-Tabinor
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7 hours ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

Please remember these are Colour Conundrums not Model Paint Conundrums . . . . .

 

Everyone has their preferred paints, and many people will have a preferred shade, or notion, of what a colour should look like. I would suggest that while Paul often explores the highways and byways of aircraft paint schemes, that is his style and forté.

He researches the history, you can chose the paint.

 

Very well summed up.

 

Pick any model paint range , look up one or more of the on-line paint comparison resources , quite possibly routing via one or two 'similar' colours , and one very quickly starts to see variations in interpretation by different manufacturers.     Add in variations of manufacture , storage , preparation and application of both the original and model paints and the possibilities widen then eventually no matter how 'accurate' the model paint is it might well be the case that it just does not meet our expectations nor 'look right'.

 

One of the great joys of our hobby is the enjoyment found from taking a set of parts , building to what we want the aircraft or whatever to resemble and then finishing to what we recall or imagine the aircraft to look like bearing in mind that memory , photography , renovation colours or even in-service painters are all fallible.

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  • Rabbit Leader changed the title to * UPDATED * Paul Lucas' "Colour Conundrum" articles published in SAM 2015 - 2021

To those who previously took a passing interest in this thread, I've just updated the list of Colour Conundrum articles to include all parts from Dec 2015 (seems to be the first of this series) to the very latest Dec 2021 edition.

Interestingly, the last two articles (Vampires & Mosquito XVI's) seem to tie in nicely with the recent Airfix kit releases - may this trend continue.  

Cheers and HTH.. Dave  

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  • 2 months later...
On 11/20/2021 at 7:57 AM, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

 

 

Hi Guys, I think I should explain that the Vallejo colour references are only at the end of each article and no mention is made of them within the text. Vallejo is a valued sponsor of the articles and we at SAM include their closest paint matches in a separate box at the end: it's not something that the author does. The articles themselves just talk about the RAF Stores Codes and the actual paint names.

Please remember these are Colour Conundrums not Model Paint Conundrums :) . I can see how including a cross referencing chart might be of use to some modellers, however I would caution that that also leaves the door open to subjective mixes of paints when no out-of-the-bottle option exists (never the mind the obvious points of contention that we see here on BM about which out-of-the-bottle shade matches a given colour best, the fact that no two paint manufactures seem to agree on a hue for a given colour anyway, and of course- how nothing has ever bettered Humbrol Authentics in the entire history of model paints ever, ever ;) ).

Everyone has their preferred paints, and many people will have a preferred shade, or notion, of what a colour should look like. I would suggest that while Paul often explores the highways and byways of aircraft paint schemes, that is his style and forté.

He researches the history, you can chose the paint.

I hope this clarifies the 'whys and whats', and we really do hope you enjoy the book.
Jonners




 

Jon,

I have always been curious about the Vallejo paint matches in SAM. How are they determined? For example, SAM usually quotes Vallejo  71.029 Dark Earth for WWII RAF aircraft instead of the more obvious 71.323 BS Dark Earth. Vallejo even includes 71.323 in their boxed paint sets for early WWII RAF colours in lieu of 71.029. I'm not challenging the accuracy of the SAM colour match, I'm just enquiring why the choice of 029 over 323. There are probably more differences between the SAM recommendations vs. what Vallejo publishes in their "Historical Color References Guide for Aircraft and AFV Series" document. Please enlighten us.

Nobby

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There's some misunderstanding expressed here.  Paul does give all the correct colour names in each article.  That he then references to Vallejo is a disappointment but presumably there is some monetary advantage to the magazine in this embedded advertising.  However, as said above, these are not articles about model paint conundrums!

 

As for his occasional strays outside the specifically demonstrated, I feel that these are clearly telegraphed, and as long as he continues to dig deeper into the historical records than anyone else I'm prepared to forgive him.   Particularly as he seems to do it far less often than any other commentator, particularly those relying upon older modelling and aviation magazines.

 

There were some very similar articles in Military Aircraft Magazine during the reign of one SAM editor, but never in SAMI.  (I always found this a useful distinguisher between the two magazines if no longer strictly true.)

 

As no-one else has commented, I noticed that there is reference to a second volume being prepared...

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5 hours ago, Nobby Clarke said:

Jon,

I have always been curious about the Vallejo paint matches in SAM. How are they determined? For example, SAM usually quotes Vallejo  71.029 Dark Earth for WWII RAF aircraft instead of the more obvious 71.323 BS Dark Earth. Vallejo even includes 71.323 in their boxed paint sets for early WWII RAF colours in lieu of 71.029. I'm not challenging the accuracy of the SAM colour match, I'm just enquiring why the choice of 029 over 323. There are probably more differences between the SAM recommendations vs. what Vallejo publishes in their "Historical Color References Guide for Aircraft and AFV Series" document. Please enlighten us.

Nobby

 

I wonder if part of these discrepancies are due to the dates of the articles. Vallejo initially suggested certain colours in the Model Air range for British and other aircraft but later they added paints more correctly depicting the actual shades (with more or less success depending on which paint). Wonder if the articles in SAM were originally issued before paints like 71.323 hit the market (paint that I have used quite often and find pretty decent)

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Concerning Vallejo's Darth Earth, yes  71.029 was their first attempt at this colour in the ModelAir range.  It was then reformulated to a slightly lighter shade and numbered 71.323 and includes BS on the label.  

 

regards,

Jack

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Even the January 2022 edition of SAM references Dark Earth to Vallejo 71.029. My question for @Jon Kunac-Tabinor was whether SAM is using a different cross-reference guide than the one published by Vallejo and downloadable from their website titled "Historical Color References Guide for Aircraft and AFV Series". I am assuming that the staff at SAM have determined that the published Vallejo cross-references are not always the closest to the original colours.

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I enjoy reading the Paul Lucas Colour Conundrums, always able to come up with information that has apparently not been seen before.

With regards quoting model paint colour matches, I personally always take these references with a little caution and decide on the best paint to use from my personal experience, they can be used as a guide but that is about all.

I would sooner that reference numbers are quoted BS,FS or RAL Numbers.

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On 2/16/2022 at 8:06 PM, Nobby Clarke said:

Even the January 2022 edition of SAM references Dark Earth to Vallejo 71.029. My question for @Jon Kunac-Tabinor was whether SAM is using a different cross-reference guide than the one published by Vallejo and downloadable from their website titled "Historical Color References Guide for Aircraft and AFV Series". I am assuming that the staff at SAM have determined that the published Vallejo cross-references are not always the closest to the original colours.

Hi chaps, editing Model Truck World means I'm late to reply here, so my apologies. I've asked the question as posed by @Nobby Clarke and Gary, the Editor, says that the Vallejo colours quoted are selected by the profile artist. They come from Vallejo's catalogue and in the artist's opinion represent best the subject he's illustrating. What essentially the endorsement is saying is that 'if you use Vallejo paints, as many do, these are the colours available in their range that our artist recommends based on his research for the subject in hand.’ 
Advertising revenue is an important part of keeping affordable print on the newsstands, and we value our connections with the many companies we work with. Author, Paul Lucas, has no input or connection with the paints quoted. As mentioned previously, his research is based solely on source documentation and any colours he quotes are from the RAF's Vocabulary of Stores.

I hope that answers the question.
 

On 2/16/2022 at 4:26 PM, Paul Bradley said:

Nuts, I could have done with that article on Far East Mosquitos... and now I can't buy any magazines in my town as the only proper bookstore closed down. 

Paul, you can still get the article in the PDF download version of the magazine:
https://pocketmags.com/scale-aircraft-modelling-magazine/december-2021

cheers
Jonners

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On 2/18/2022 at 1:45 AM, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

Hi chaps, editing Model Truck World means I'm late to reply here, so my apologies. I've asked the question as posed by @Nobby Clarke and Gary, the Editor, says that the Vallejo colours quoted are selected by the profile artist. They come from Vallejo's catalogue and in the artist's opinion represent best the subject he's illustrating. What essentially the endorsement is saying is that 'if you use Vallejo paints, as many do, these are the colours available in their range that our artist recommends based on his research for the subject in hand.’ 
Advertising revenue is an important part of keeping affordable print on the newsstands, and we value our connections with the many companies we work with. Author, Paul Lucas, has no input or connection with the paints quoted. As mentioned previously, his research is based solely on source documentation and any colours he quotes are from the RAF's Vocabulary of Stores.

I hope that answers the question.
 

Paul, you can still get the article in the PDF download version of the magazine:
https://pocketmags.com/scale-aircraft-modelling-magazine/december-2021

cheers
Jonners

Thank you @Jon Kunac-Tabinor for your reply. Of course, this begs the next question "how does the profile artist determine the recommended colour matches?" But, I fear I'm already way down the rabbit hole here.

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  • 2 months later...
On 2/19/2022 at 10:46 PM, Nobby Clarke said:

Thank you @Jon Kunac-Tabinor for your reply. Of course, this begs the next question "how does the profile artist determine the recommended colour matches?" But, I fear I'm already way down the rabbit hole here.

 

That is an interesting one because looking at SAM's Malta Spitfire articles in October 2018 and May 2021, we are shown two Deep Sky references, 71.090 & 70.844, for the same aircraft. However these are two very different blue. 

 

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That would surely be down to the individual interpretations of two different profile artists.  Paul himself rarely offers any branded paint numbers. His articles where possible quote from source material. Vallejo paint matches indicated are based on the artist's interpretation of the information presented in the article, as Vallejo do not have exact matches for every shade in the RAF vocabulary of stores. Jan Polc's work includes the caveat 'denotes appropriate match', as seen on the 2021 artwork. Neither of Paul's articles include the word 'Vallejo'.

 

 

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On 5/14/2022 at 7:39 AM, 56134 said:

Paul himself rarely offers any branded paint numbers. His articles where possible quote from source material.

And long may he continue to do so.  I'd rather he kept to the history, maybe with an occasional leavening of informed speculation, and left the bickering over most appropriate model paints to others.  Personally, I completely disregard the alleged matches to Vallejo colours (though happily use Vallejo paints).  However if including them helps keep the magazine's price down, that's fine by me.  This thread has made clear that the mention of model paint brands and shades in the periphery of articles penned by Paul does NOT (AFAIK) indicate that he endorses them.

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