Martlet Mk VI colors

[Spitfires Forever]

I am about to build a 1/48 Sword FM2/Martlet in the FAA scheme of Extra dark Sea Grey, Slate Grey and Sky undersides but am wondering if the actual colors were US equivalent/substitute colors such as Dark Gull Grey, OD Green with Sky Grey undersides? I know Dana Bell is a great authority on Lend Lease paint colors but from what I understand only Grumman got their paint to match fairly closely MAP designated colors and Grumman shifted the manufacture of these aircraft to other contractors due to emphasis on the manufacture of the Hellcat and Avenger. Was it Eastern Aircraft that built the FM and Martlet? I seem to recall something to that effect. Any help on this topic will be appreciated.

Cheers

[e8n2]

Eastern Aircraft took over production of both the Wildcat and Avenger (originally Marlet and Tarpon in FAA service) so that Grumman could concentrate on Hellcat production.  The Eastern built Wildcats were the FM-X series and their Avengers were the TBM-X series (X representing the particular model number of the FM or TBM, i.e. FM-2 and TBM-1).  Not positive on the paints but it sounds about right.

Later,

Dave

[Grey Beema]

My understanding is that Wildcat MkV & MkVI we’re in equivalent colours.

 

Have a look here, I know it’s about Corsairs but covers equivalent colours..

 

 

 

[MDriskill]

Mr. Bell's book on the Wildcat does not go into great detail on this, but states that British Wildcats used the "equivalent colors" (as opposed to US-standard paints that were only kinda sorta close).

 

All FM-2's / Wildcat VI's were built by Eastern Aircraft (General Motors).

Edited September 23, 2022 by MDriskill

[Troy Smith]

23 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

but am wondering if the actual colors were US equivalent/substitute colors such as Dark Gull Grey, OD Green with Sky Grey undersides?

Not sky grey,  the other two maybe later names, but the wartime are below.

ANA was the wartime standard, FS 595 is post war, early 1950's.  It is used as FS 595 decks are reasonably common, and some ANA colors did transfer, but always treat as FS595 "match" to a ANA as the closest visual match.

 

Eastern used equivalent colors,  quoting from the linked Avenger thread

 

"Eastern-- Olive Drab ANA 613 (FS 34130), Sea Grey ANA 603 (FS 36173), Sky (FS 34504).

Sea Grey ANA 603 was British Extra Dark Sea Grey so wasn't a substitute as such.

Sky Type S Gray ANA 610 was meant to be equivalent to British TSS Sky as well but there was apparently a difference.

There was no ANA equivalent for Sky simply because at the time of the ANA consolidation it was not required by any service as a paint colour. 'Sky Type S Gray' (or Grey) was terminology used by Dupont for its Sky equivalent paint 71-021 and is nowhere near FS 36373 in appearance by any measure. British requirements for Sky under surfaces were commonly communicated and specified as 'Duck Egg Blue' rather than as any form of grey. The ANA 610 standard for Sky is close to FS 24424 and was retained until 1949 when it was superseded by FS 34424"

The Monogram guide to US Navy and Marine Corps Colors, has actual paint chips, and only has ANA 610 Sky.  

It's a bit greyer than MAP Sky from memory,  I did do a photo comparison in a Corsair thread but it was really washed out.   While 34424 was closest to ANA610, MAP Sky was closest to 34583

 

 

See here, I think the interior colors are the same,  I'll @Dana Bell

as he's the chap whose the primary research.

Also, I think by the time of the FM-2, the FAA just used the name Wildcat.

 

HTH

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks for the input. I have read certain reports that say light aircraft grey was the color used for the undersides of Corsairs but of course those were Vought"s choices. I find ANA colors don't always translate into FS colors. Regardless the grey used did not seem to have much of a green patina, if any like Sky type S. Perhaps duck egg green is closer. Like Onslow often tells Daisy "I've got headache" and this color conundrum can certainly do that. At least it's not like trying to figure out Japanese aircraft colors right? Anyway, thanks guys.

Cheers

[Fukuryu]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:49 PM, Spitfires Forever said:

At least it's not like trying to figure out Japanese aircraft colors right?

 

Nothing to figure out. They are well-known and documented. Access to that knowledge, though, is another matter.

[Spitfires Forever]

I defer to Nick Millman and his website for the most accurate information but getting the most accurate paint colors is not always easy, especially in enamel.

[Fukuryu]

34 minutes ago, Spitfires Forever said:

I defer to Nick Millman and his website for the most accurate information but getting the most accurate paint colors is not always easy, especially in enamel.

 

So do I. For enamels so far the only reliable game in town are @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies's Colourcoats paints, also backed up by Nick's research.

[Spitfires Forever]

I guess I  have to go through Hannant's to get the Sovereign enamel paint. I have not yet found a source here in the States and have been using Revell and Humbrol since the Model Master international color line was dropped. I still need to finish my A6M2, just hate masking canopies. Getting lazy in my old age ai guess. Thanks for the info.

Cheers

[Graham Boak]

Hannants do not stock the Colourcoats.  In the UK and Europe they are obtained direct from Sovereign Hobby.  However Jamie does have a US stockist (or two?) which I'm pretty sure is mentioned on the Sovereign Hobbies website.  I have seen it, but felt no need to remember just who it is.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

If interested:

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/where-to-buy

[Spitfires Forever]

Cheers mate!

[72modeler]

I have bought Colourcoats enamels from HB Hobbies, but due to the pandemic and other factors, he is always awaiting re-stocks, especially of the USN blues and RAF/FAA colors. If you are in no hurry, and by that I mean I have been trying to get some colors since January with no success, then eventually he can supply them. I don't understand the shipping restrictions from the UK to the US, as I doubt even a case of Dark Slate Grey is going to be able to bring down a 787! (You pack them in  a polyethylene bag and vacuum seal it, fer cryin' out loud! l) 

Mike

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies,

Maybe the next time an RN ship/aircraft comes over to our side of the pond for an exchange visit/exercise, you could have them transport several crates of the stuff- we are dying to get our hands on your paints, y'know! (How many cartons can you stuff in the travel pod of a Typhoon or the cargo bay of a Herk?) 

[11bravo]

39 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

I have bought Colourcoats enamels from HB Hobbies, but due to the pandemic and other factors, he is always awaiting re-stocks, especially of the USN blues and RAF/FAA colors. If you are in no hurry, and by that I mean I have been trying to get some colors since January with no success, then eventually he can supply them. I don't understand the shipping restrictions from the UK to the US, as I doubt even a case of Dark Slate Grey is going to be able to bring down a 787! (You pack them in  a polyethylene bag and vacuum seal it, fer cryin' out loud! l) 

Mike

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies,

Maybe the next time an RN ship/aircraft comes over to our side of the pond for an exchange visit/exercise, you could have them transport several crates of the stuff- we are dying to get our hands on your paints, y'know! (How many cartons can you stuff in the travel pod of a Typhoon or the cargo bay of a Herk?) 

I had good luck with White Ensign here in the US.   HB is a one-person show and it sounded like he was going through some challenges.    Only thing is that when I went back to re-order some paint from WEM, many colors were OOS.   This was about a year ago, no idea if they have been restocked.  

Edited October 3, 2021 by 11bravo

[JPuente54]

I have ordered from H&B Hobbies and from White Ensign Models; and, received Colourcoats Paints from them. It can take awhile for a resupply of some them(still waiting for a supply of the US equivalent of 'sky'), but do have the USN paints for my kits of WW2(SBDs,TBFs, etc.) and USAAF aircraft interiors and exteriors. A couple of general use paints 72were purchased as well. 

[Spitfires Forever]

I have found that between Humbrol and Revell I can get the majority of colors I need for allied (although neither make azure Blue and don't know about French colors, the demand for those colors are probably minimal compared to the mainstays) and even German aircraft but for Japanese or Italian you have to go elsewhere if your an old fashioned enamel guy. I lament the demise of the Model Master international colors, the paints worked great and for the most part were accurate. When I find rare MM enamels on eBay they usually go for a pretty penny. Oh well, you can't have everything, besides, where would you put it all?

Cheers

[72modeler]

6 hours ago, Spitfires Forever said:

besides, where would you put it all?

Cheers

In my model paint storage cabinets!

Mike

[e8n2]

14 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I have bought Colourcoats enamels from HB Hobbies, but due to the pandemic and other factors, he is always awaiting re-stocks, especially of the USN blues and RAF/FAA colors. If you are in no hurry, and by that I mean I have been trying to get some colors since January with no success, then eventually he can supply them. I don't understand the shipping restrictions from the UK to the US, as I doubt even a case of Dark Slate Grey is going to be able to bring down a 787! (You pack them in  a polyethylene bag and vacuum seal it, fer cryin' out loud! l) 

Mike

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies,

Maybe the next time an RN ship/aircraft comes over to our side of the pond for an exchange visit/exercise, you could have them transport several crates of the stuff- we are dying to get our hands on your paints, y'know! (How many cartons can you stuff in the travel pod of a Typhoon or the cargo bay of a Herk?) 

Hey Mike,

I just got an order in from HB yesterday, and it was even a couple of days early.  No USN blues, but one naval color and one US Army color and four aircraft.  Check back and forth between HB and White Ensign.  I would have preferred to go to White Ensign but they didn't have the Army color that I needed and it looks like HB finally got a re-stock on a good number of their paints.

Later,

Dave

[Graham Boak]

17 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I don't understand the shipping restrictions from the UK to the US, as I doubt even a case of Dark Slate Grey is going to be able to bring down a 787! (You pack them in  a polyethylene bag and vacuum seal it, fer cryin' out loud! l) 

 

Not UK-US but all air travel everywhere, internal and international.  Which includes postal services that might use aircraft somewhere in their distribution.  This apparently is partially due to some incidents with silver paint tins exploding but mainly driven (I think) by the use of liquid containers for bombs by terrorists.  Model paints are just collateral damage, and incredibly small beer to airlines and postal regulators.  They can be sent but only under hazardous materials rules which are so expensive as to make small volumes unreasonable = I hazard a guess that you wouldn't pay the price.

 

Jamie has published comments on this on the Sovereign Hobbies website.  He has had to make special arrangements with one particular parcels service to enable distribution even within the UK mainland.  I presume this does apply to Northern Ireland and various UK islands.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It's about escalation potential. Most hazardous goods materials aren't especially lethal on their own (but some clearly are), but unknown combinations of them packed in close proximity can lead to significant escalation of what would otherwise be a nuisance type event.

 

The exploding silver paint tins, for example, is well known but the term "exploding" is relative and perhaps even hyperbole (no criticism intended Graham) as in reality it wasn't a Hollywood style explosion based upon igniting 500 gallons of petrol but rather the lid popped off and the paint made a mess. However, the paint could make very viable fuel for a fire (as could all alcohol based acrylics etc - this isn't just an enamel "problem") as could deodorant aerosols, hairspray, lighter fluid or practically any other liquid or solid that will ignite and self-sustain a fire without needing large and prolonged heat inputs. An aerosol deodorant can with its lid squashed in an over-packed suitcase venting over e.g. a battery operated electrical device of questionable quality could start a fire in flight. On aircraft especially the flash points of most liquids will reduce as the cabin altitude decreases, making ignition easier (see TWA Flight 800 which exploded in 1996 for example - that took an empty kerosene tank and a spark - something which would not cause ignition at sea level but which did ignite violently as it climbed half way to cruising altitude).

 

 

International Air Transport Association (IATA)

https://www.iata.org/en/programs/cargo/dgr/

 

Quote

Dangerous Goods Regulations

IATA works closely with local governments and ICAO in the development of regulations. This way, we ensure that the rules and guidelines on dangerous goods transportation are effective and efficient.

The IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations (DGR) manual is the global reference for shipping dangerous goods by air and the only standard recognized by airlines.

 

Quote

What's inside the DGR?

• Applicability - (shipper and operator responsibilities, training, security, incident reporting)
• Limitations - (forbidden and hidden goods, storage and transport quantities, transport by post, transport by passengers/crew)
• Classification - (explosives, gases, flammable, toxic, oxidizing, radioactive and corrosive and multiple hazard material)
• Packing Instructions - (explosives, gases, flammable, toxic, infectious, oxidizing, radioactive and corrosive and multiple hazard material)
• Packaging Specifications - (inner, UN, construction and testing, limited quantity)
• Documentation - (shipper’s declaration, air waybill)
• Handling - (storage, loading, inspection, information provision, reporting, training, document retention)
• Radioactive material - (transport, limitations, classification, identification, packing, testing, labelling, documentation, handling)

[Graham Boak]

No offense taken: I have wondered much the same since I first saw the term used.  Explosion is a fairly loose term covering a wide range of potential damage.   However I don't think that relief "it could have been worse" would have been the first response from an airline faced with considerable damage claims over ruined luggage -at best.

 

Nor is it reasonable to expect hard-pressed handlers to have encyclopaedic knowledge of an immense range of products and their potential risks.  Even assuming the customer understood these and was honest.  (Obviously no disrespect, Jamie!)

 

Air travel has a fantastic safety record, largely due to strict obedience of complex regulations honed by hard experience.  It really does take an unlikely combination of rare events to create a disaster.  Direct human intervention excluded, of course.