N3196 XT-L - "Stapme" Stapleton's Spitfire Mk1a, any references for the squadron code on this aircraft?

[Peter Roberts]

Nice job finding a photo(s) of the plane! As Troy will tell you…..

 

For what it’s worth I agree - about 24” codes

 

Well done on nailing this one down pretty well.

[WLJayne]

Thanks @Peter Roberts, I'm really glad there was a photo out there. I'll have to go through all of these and try to double and triple check them before they go off to Cartograf. But I think for the most part I've more or less got a hang of the consistent inconsistency of these early markings.

[wmcgill]

Forgive me if I'm interpreting the partially visible captions incorrectly, but isn't the rear view photo a "...clever photographic reconstruction..." and therefore not based on a real photo? If so we shouldn't put too much faith in it.

 

Or do you think it's referring to an extensive restoration of an imperfect print, which would bear scrutiny?

[WLJayne]

15 minutes ago, wmcgill said:

Forgive me if I'm interpreting the partially visible captions incorrectly, but isn't the rear view photo a "...clever photographic reconstruction..." and therefore not based on a real photo? If so we shouldn't put too much faith in it.

 

Or do you think it's referring to an extensive restoration of an imperfect print, which would bear scrutiny?

 I asked myself the same question, and indeed it is a reconstruction but it appears to be a restoration as you say, there's a fair bit missing and I think it was a bad exposure or the negative was damaged. However the photo below is just clear enough in the book (not my phone camera shot) to show the codes and roundel in the same positions and size. I think it's the best we're going to do nonetheless.

[WLJayne]

Hi chaps, I've worked a bit more on Stapme's profile. I'm pretty happy with it at this point and it's a work in progress for how the profiles will look in the A5 colour printed instructions. It's just missing decal numbers and perhaps some detail notes. The Medium Sea Grey codes might look a bit dark compared to other profiles, but it's a perfect match for the facsimile swatch in British Aviation Colours, as well as for the real paint swatch sent to me by Warbird Colour who restore spitfires. You can also see this darker MSG on X4650 and P9374 flying today. What do you think?

 

EDIT: Just noticed that other 603 spits had Sky painted up to the panel line on the engine cowl at this time, it's almost certain that N3196 would have been painted in this way too. So I'll change that.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by WLJayne

[Peter Roberts]

That looks very good to me. 

 

Re: the cowling camouflage line. There was a thread here that discussed that, amongst other matters. Someone (sorry, name forgotten) had found that this changed during production, and was able to point to select serial number batches. I have tried to find the thread but failed because it was under another name that also eludes me. We need a search guru - maybe Troy can uncover it?

[Troy Smith]

3 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

I have tried to find the thread but failed because it was under another name that also eludes me.

This is likely covered in the Ted Hooton’s Spitfire article in the Nov 1982,    Scans of this are still on @lasermonkey photobucket,  but require faffing about to read.   

here https://app.photobucket.com/u/lasermonkey/a/748a3176-5933-4b09-b7af-920e4e96fe23

if you click on the image, and open in a new tab, you can see it and download, but as  WEBP file.   I've tried a few 'solutions'  but they downloads don't want to open,  but I'm sure there is some work round ..

 

I'm surprised @dogsbody  has not got scans of this.    I even bought the vintage mag.   Which is 'somewhere'  in the house.... 

 

I have a dim memory someone scanned it and put it somewhere... 

 

AH, yes, after some more searching, it has been put on Flickrr by @lasermonkey which is very very helpful

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151333023@N06/albums/72157671834714987/with/44107050765/  

 

Have you seen this @WLJayne ?

 

[WLJayne]

Many thanks for that @Troy Smith I've been trying to get my hands on that and not yet found it, so that's ideal. @Peter Roberts I imagine the spec for that paint border was changed in the factories in the summer or autumn, but the pattern generally seems to be that what was done (sometimes hastily) in the field in accordance with the various AMOs eventually became standard factory finishes. So I think it's possible that N3196 might have been painted this way when its underside was repainted from night and white in whatever "sky" shade it had, as it was an earlier airframe that would have been painted in the field along with the others which we have more photos of.

 

Hopefully I'll be able to confirm the plausibility of that through the Hooton article and others. 

[Grey Beema]

This is fine work @WLJayne.  Even though I am a died in the wool 1/48 Fleet Air Arm modeller - I am thinking about a few of these..

 

Is there going to be a Mask for the A & B schemes?  Although they are assumed based on the serial number - it would be good if there were masks available (even if not by yourselves)..

 

[WLJayne]

Many thanks @Grey Beema! That's high praise indeed and we'd be delighted if modellers who usually build in larger scales give these a go. I am going to ask Piotr if A & B masks would be possible, I'm sure people would appreciate them. It's something I've thought about before but not had the headspace to action yet. I think once all these decals and boxes are off for print, it would be a good thing to look into so they're ready when the kits go on sale.

 

@Troy Smith someone on my discord asked if we could include strut/wheel colour information on the profiles, which is actually a great idea but a huge can of worms. I'm currently trying to digest your comprehensive comments on another thread about it, but I hope you'll forgive me if I end up have a few points that I might need help with 😁. I think what's likely is that I'll end up with "best guess rules" for it based on serial numbers and the profile's time period.

[WLJayne]

Shout out to @Edgar, just read your 2011 comments on a thread about WT inspection stencils, really helpful! I've just gone in and changed them all to DTD 308 which was the cellulose in use before DTD 517 synthetic was introduced in 1942. Furthermore, this week Paul Lucas kindly sent me through a copy of his July and August colour conundrum articles in SAM, in which he includes evidence that units were ordered never to mix DTD 314 (synthetic) with DTD 308 (cellulose) in order to mix their own "sky" colours during the summer of 1940. So I'm pretty sure that all these stencils on early Merlin spitfires would be DTD 308 out of the factory? You would of course not see under surface stencils on any RAF fighters that had been repainted in the field, until sky became factory standard, and old aircraft passed through various MUs for overhauls and maintenance. 

 

I had been using P9444 (in the Science Museum) as a reference as I have excellent and very clear photos of the stencils, but that must have gone through an MU (or restoration) and been repainted, as all the WT patches show DTD 517, save for the port elevator which is still marked DTD 308.

 

Am I in the right ballpark in thinking that upper surfaces were finished in DTD 308 from 39-42 ish? The devil really is in the details!

 

EDIT: Just been re-reading Camouflage and Markings, and now I'm thinking that DTD 314 may have been used on metal areas, with DTD 308 on doped canvas such as tails. Later these were replaced by 517 and 83 respectively. You're not going to be able to tell on the model, but it would be nice if it were correct on the stencil diagram at least. Will keep reading but any input here would be useful.

Edited August 12, 2022 by WLJayne

[Peter Roberts]

Sadly Edgar is no longer with us - he was indeed a great resource who spent many hours researching the archives at Kew and is greatly missed for his knowledge, enthusiasm and companionship.

 

I finally found the thread I mentioned above regards cowling camouflage. Mark Postlethwaite provided input here and it is worth a read:

 

PR

 

[WLJayne]

That's sad to hear @Peter Roberts, but it's clear how knowledgeable and respected he was. I've sent a letter to Paul Lucas about the stencils, I know most BoB spits would have had minimal stencils but the kit also covers earlier Mk1s as well as MkIIs, so if I have a set of stencils that work well for any configuration (as an educated guess which I think is the best we can do) then that adds something to the kits.

 

I'm glad to see @Mark Postlethwaite confirming my suspicions in that other thread that "If I were to hazard a guess I would say the lower demarcation was used up until the factory changed from black and white undersides to sky." This is also something I reckoned would be a good rule of thumb and had planned on adopting where I couldn't get photo proof. But it makes sense, you're ground crew who have been ordered to repaint many aircraft undersides in great haste with whatever materials you can get - you won't have the stencils or masks that the factory had and I doubt you have the time to faff about with tape. So you pick the easiest panel line to paint to, and voila! It does appear that many effective time saving methods that were developed on the field eventually became standard factory finish, which again makes sense as they were trying to churn them out quickly while reducing costs.

[WLJayne]

Hi everyone! Thanks so much for all your help with this, it's been a labour of love but I'm quite pleased with the result. In the end, we decided we could only afford to launch with one kit, and we chose the dogfight set. Thankfully all our pre-order customers have been supportive. We'll release the other boxes with decals and artwork for the different variants covered by the plastic parts in the kit in good time. Though all have been researched and the decals designed, so they'll be ready when we need them.

 

Here are the two profiles that will be in the first box as seen in the instruction booklet, which you were all a great help in researching and refining. "Stapme" Stapleton's Spit and "The One That Got Away" Franz Von Werra's Bf109E. Many more decal profiles of other aircraft have already been made, and will be put into production at a later date when we've had some sale. See you at SMW!

EDIT: Since posting this, I've been sent a better quality reproduction of the crash photo as well as the official RAF report, indicating that Von Werra's 109 did not have a white nose. Educated guesses appear to point at it being a fresher less grimy RLM 65 panel. 

 

 

Thanks again!!

Edited October 3, 2022 by WLJayne