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Argentina in possible deal to buy JF-17 Thunders from Pakistan?


Max Headroom

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4 hours ago, tempestfan said:

The JF-17 looks like a Gripen went to bed with a Tigershark... 

As every modern fighter is full of electronics, I would expect any export models to have some sort of switch at some neuralgic point with which the seller simply makes the aircraft unflyable by remote action if the buyer does something nasty - this was rumoured I think re the Iraqi F.1s during the second Gulf War. In case such mechanisms exist, the easiest way for Argentina probably would be to go for F-16Cs, in case they can get some aid package to make them affordable. Those F-16s would pose no threat to the UK, as Argentina would be well aware that they would be out of action at the speed someone at the State Department needs to flick a switch.

 

The UK would have kittens if the US sold Argentina F-16:s of any description. 🙄

From an Argentine point of view it would be a rerun of the A-4AR weapons situation with the US promising to deliver significant numbers of them "on demand". Translation: you pay for the boom-boom but we keep the toys here and decide if you're allowed to play with them. 🤔

Do you know any country that would put up with that? 🤮

 

Putler just bombed the RN with inert bombs in international waters in the Black Sea. If you want to meditate on UK defence needs and possible threats Russia sounds like a far more credible threat than Argentina.

 

Cheers, Moggy

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12 minutes ago, Moggy said:

 

Putler just bombed the RN with inert bombs in international waters in the Black Sea. If you want to meditate on UK defence needs and possible threats Russia sounds like a far more credible threat than Argentina.

 

Cheers, Moggy

Did they actually drop inert bombs 'close' to RN ships in international waters, or did you read that in the Daily rubbish papers 😉

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I don't read Murdoch's rags. Half of Britain's recent problems has been exacerbated by a consistent low standard of journalism in his papers - and holding Britain's politicians to ransom to boot. Ever heard of the Leveson inquiry? Google it.

 

Regarding the bombing:

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-britain-hms-defender-black-sea/31334242.html

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/24/british-warships-might-enter-crimean-waters-again-says-minister

 

The Russians have (BTW Putler himself) claimed to have both fired warning shots from Rubin-class patrol boats and then Russian Naval Aviation aircraft bombing directly ahead of HMS Defence's course.

 

The bombing itself is in some doubt. However the aggressive simulated runs (if no bombs were involved) by Russian attack aircraft were most real.

 

One easy-to-find printed sources:

Air Forces Monthly 2021-08 p. 7

 

I have more but it is long past my bedtime 😁

 

I will not be at home tomorrow or saturday so I can't continue contributing in this thread before Sunday

 

Cheers, Moggy

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11 hours ago, Moggy said:

The one question I have been waiting for somebody to ask is "who is to provide the weapons?"

It has the potential to turn into the same problem as the fighter procurement has. 🙄

 

********************************************************************************************************************************************

Summary:

Since their last Mirage was retired in 2015 (they have become fairly desperate - making the AAF look at almost anything) the only choices left after the Korean deal fell through seems to be either the MiG-35 or the JF-17.

Comparison - the MiG-35 is more technologically advanced and supported by an organization that has provided world-class fighters for a very long time. The Pakistani fighter is produced by an organization with no such experience.

Both use the same engine (Klimov RD-93) JF-17 single & the MiG-35 twins. The MiG-35 has significantly wider radius of action, heavier payload, superior speed, more pylons for payload.
Avionics; JF-17 has latest Chinese tech used on the J-10 (Flanker fighter). The MiG has comparable Russian tech again with a better support organization. (Whether the Russian tech is superior is a matter for discussion).
Armament: the MiG-35 uses Russian hardware R-73 & long range (BVR) R-77.
JF-17 uses a mixture of western (AIM-9L/M Sidewinder - not the latest) and Chinese BVR PL-12 & PL-15 same as used on the J-10.
Both aircraft have cannon (similar) and can carry a variety of modern guided ordnance.
Both have IFR capability.

The financing is as important as the fighter itself: Russia has not presented any such plan.

*********************************************************************************************************************************************


This could mean that the JF-17 wins by default - if the Argentine government and the AAF really make it happen this time

 

The political dimension is  complicated too. Buying from Putin would be a fraught decision, since Russia is  aggressively persuing an increasingly nasty cold war with the West. While Argentina has good relations with the Russian Federation, she has clearly no intention to align herself with Russia. Argentina has always been aligned with the West.

 

Buying from Pakistan is practically buying from China via an intermediary - and leaves the question of providing the boom-boom open to more problems (Sidewinder anybody?). Russia makes its own world-class ordnance - thus bypassing further restrictions.

 

Both options fly in the face of existing technology in AAF use - it would mean converting to different technology (as opposite to western)

 

"Is this actually going to happen this time around?" your guess is as good as mine 😇

 

Cheers, Moggy

 

China does the marketing. Pakistan builds the aircraft. Except for the engine, the aircraft is manufactured in Pakistan. Its avionics too are designed in Pakistan Aeronautics Complex.

 

All blocks of JF-17 come with Pakistan Air Force specifications. The aircraft has its own weapons suite. This weapons suite is built in collaboration with China. It includes smart munitions like GPS guided bombs, anti radiation missiles, anti shipping missiles, cruise missiles, WVR and BVR air to air missiles. 

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13 hours ago, Moggy said:

 

T

Putler just bombed the RN with inert bombs in international waters in the Black Sea. If you want to meditate on UK defence needs and possible threats Russia sounds like a far more credible threat than Argentina.

 

Cheers, Moggy

 

For some reason a Pink Floyd song came into my mind.... 🤣

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There’s a bit of needle and veering a little too close to politics creeping in, so if you could all make an extra effort to avoid it please. We’ve got a lot of Argentinian friends on here, and I’d hate for there to be a reason for them to think we’re a bunch of jerks

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8 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Not to be a jerk but what does poverty have to do with the sale of aircraft from Pakistan to Argentina ? 

I personally think we need to reduce the poverty and inflation rate first before buying military hardware used by, what? Three nations?

 

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1 hour ago, Sturmovik said:

I personally think we need to reduce the poverty and inflation rate first before buying military hardware used by, what? Three nations?

 

Usually military expenditure does not directly relate to GNP...

But politics....andbthen there is some relation state form as well, and of course political situation, geography, history, neighbours.... 

Just compare Switzerland and Austria...  both on the upper end of GNP/capita... or  with Greece just to stay away from Argentina and Pakistan for a moment...

 

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10 hours ago, Beermonster1958 said:

 

**DELETED. POSTED IN ERROR

 

John

 

8 hours ago, Mike said:

There’s a bit of needle and veering a little too close to politics creeping in, so if you could all make an extra effort to avoid it please. We’ve got a lot of Argentinian friends on here, and I’d hate for there to be a reason for them to think we’re a bunch of jerks

 

1 hour ago, Sturmovik said:

I personally think we need to reduce the poverty and inflation rate first before buying military hardware used by, what? Three nations?

 

 

26 minutes ago, exdraken said:

Usually military expenditure does not directly relate to GNP...

But politics....andbthen there is some relation state form as well, and of course political situation, geography, history, neighbours.... 

Just compare Switzerland and Austria...  both on the upper end of GNP/capita... or  with Greece just to stay away from Argentina and Pakistan for a moment...

 

Hello everyone … please don't misunderstand my comment. My point was that this is a thread to talk about a specific jet and contract between two parties. I truly agree that poverty should be taken serious as well as reduced as much as possible. I just was trying in my own way to indicate that it  should have been brought up in a conversation pertaining to poverty not military sales contracts ? Not even sure if such a thread could be done as it may get too political, Mike would know for sure ? Im not sure about anyone else but I know very little about the JF-17. I use threads like this to learn a bit about the aircraft. 

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There are magnificent pictures of the JF-17 during its participation in Anatolian Eagle 2021 exercise in Scramble n.507 August 2021.

 

Some more pictures

https://aviationphotodigest.com/anatolian-eagle-2021/      good pictures excellent info

 

https://theaviationist.com/2021/07/14/anatolian-eagle-2021/      same pictures better resolution

 

 

BTW what the AAF really wanted was the Rafale. However it costs 70 million Euros a piece and - the UK being a member of the EU at the time - the EU frowns upon the sale of weapons to countries challenging ownership over territories under the sovereignty of a EU member.

The EU does protect its members states' territorial integrity so an out-and-out attack against EU member states' overseas possessions would most likely end in massive economic sanctions and possibly military intervention.

After Brexit that clause no longer applies.

 

Cheers, Moggy

Edited by Moggy
typo
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18 hours ago, exdraken said:

Maybe AUKUS  paves the way for Rafales in Argentina, China :devil:, ... really?? I don't think so....

 China?? How does China come into this??

 

I doubt Dassault is going to sell Rafales to Argentina - mainly because Argentina doesn't have the cash.

Yet before Brexit the EU was duty-bound to preserve the UK's territorial integrity - so once that no longer applies Dassault has a freer hand.

 

It's interesting that you name AUKUS: France lost a huge contract for nuclear subs because of it. The French never let a slight of this magnitude go without riposte.

If the AAF had the cash Dassault would be declaring a bumper dividend over the Argentine contract 😜

 

 

All of this is of academic interest only since the AAF doesn't have the cash for Rafales. :)

 

Cheers, Moggy

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As someone with a special interest in the Argentine aircraft generally and especially of the Malvinas war, it never ceases to amaze me how alive the "threat" from Argentina still is in the minds of many British. This thread was interesting so thanks for all the input.

 

I too, will be most eager to see what Argentina eventually ends up with regarding their interceptor force. To me the JF 17 does not seem too bad a choice, but from a modeller's perspective that plane is just ugly! I think the MiG-35 would be the best choice, though, if the Argentinians could ever scrape together enough financial support to buy the numbers needed.

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1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

as long as American GE F-114 engines are involved, I highly doubt it... the T-50wasalso discarded for that, and cash, no?

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On 10/9/2021 at 9:19 PM, Max Headroom said:

 

Sounds like a politically motivated article rather than one with any serious technical merit, an attempt to counter the rumours about the Pakistani aircraft by telling how good the Indian alternative would be. That is something quite common whenever these two countries are involved in anything,,,

Political moves apart, I can't see how anyone may be interested in the Tejas today, it's a type that is only now entering full production and does not have any particularly special record. Such a purchase could only be the result of political agreements, or some particularly good offer.. but must be very good !

 

 

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6 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

can't see how anyone may be interested in the Tejas today, it's a type that is only now entering full production and does not have any particularly special record.

Yeah mostly!

But with Aster BVR missile integrated it could be a cheep ( if even cheep??) alternative... don't think that Austria uses its downgraded Eurofighters in a way a Tejas could not be.... :wall:

 

Sri Lanka maybe?

 

Apart Tejas is not yet  full MK.2 standard, no?

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 21/09/2021 at 15:34, Moggy said:

Brazil has now two carriers so they are the force projection muscle.

In time, Guys! The Brazilian Navy no longer has any carrier... 😬. All turned in junk! Unfortunately, the Brazilian Armed Forces are in poverty. So sad! The civilians governmets destroyed the military forces. Although hundred of military officers have governmet positions - "presidente bozonaro" (does anyone remeber Bozo, the clown?) continues the bad job.

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