Me. 163A prototype color?

[RainierHooker]

Ive been doing an, up til now, quick and straightforward build of Special Hobby's Me. 163A. The kit provides decals for three of the five prototype Komets. The colour callout is for an overall "aluminum" finish, but after finding photos and video of the original aircraft, I'm not so sure. Depending on the photos, the finish seems to range from a very light (RLM76?) to a medium (RLM02?) gray. Universally, all the prototypes appear to have been finished with a very high gloss (most apparent in video).

 

So, before I start spraying, which is it? RLM02 makes sense for a prototype and the 1940/41 timeframe, but many of the photos appear far too light in color. RLM76 seems to solve the issue of apparent lightness, but seems perhaps a bit "new" for the time these prototypes were produced. Then there are the outliers, RLM65, maybe? A proprietary Messerschmitt color, maybe, but I'm leaning to no...

 

Here's some pics gleaned from the internet for analysis:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FatFlyHalf]

I have no reason to believe this is right but could it have been RLM05 (Ivory) which was widely used on gliders pre-war ?

After all these for their early flights they were in effect gliders,   Maybe ?

If not, how about RLM63, Light Grey?

But I'm guessing.

[Graham Boak]

I don't see any good reason for using 05, the aircraft is not a glider.  Messerschmitt appears generally to have stuck to official painting instructions.  When used overall, 02 normally appears much lighter than it appears in paint chips.  I think that this is mainly due to the increased light reflection from an entire aircraft, which makes many colours appear lighter, but may also be that the paint itself was lighter than the standard - and certainly lighter than models painted in apparently accurate paints appear.

[RainierHooker]

As of right now I think I'm going to go with RLM 02, but lightened perhaps 20% with white. Between the that and the gloss coat, it might be right enough, I figure.

 

I've got at least a rainy Sunday afternoon's worth of filling, sanding, priming, sanding, filling, sanding, priming, sanding and priming before its time to commit. Those old molds sure are tired...

[Jochen Barett]

16 hours ago, RainierHooker said:

Ive been doing an, up til now, quick and straightforward build of Special Hobby's Me. 163A. The kit provides decals for three of the five prototype Komets. The colour callout is for an overall "aluminum" finish, but after finding photos and video of the original aircraft, I'm not so sure. Depending on the photos, the finish seems to range from a very light (RLM76?) to a medium (RLM02?) gray. Universally, all the prototypes appear to have been finished with a very high gloss (most apparent in video).

 

So, before I start spraying, which is it? RLM02 makes sense for a prototype and the 1940/41 timeframe, but many of the photos appear far too light in color. RLM76 seems to solve the issue of apparent lightness, but seems perhaps a bit "new" for the time these prototypes were produced. Then there are the outliers, RLM65, maybe? A proprietary Messerschmitt color, maybe, but I'm leaning to no...

 

Here's some pics gleaned from the internet for analysis:

+++

 

I watched this video

 

and checked what other modellers think ...

 

Some (g.g. http://www.hobby-luftfahrt.de/cont/flgz/me_163a_01.htm ) have a tendency towards what I would call "ligthened RLM 02". 02 OK for prototypes etc. and the video images comparing the plane to grass and skin tones and looking at the plane, I have to admit being "clueless". Kit instructions show a netutral grey and prescribe RLM 02 (a grenish grey!). Do older publiactions give a clue? https://docplayer.org/82609377-Raketenjaeger-messerschmitt-me-163.html not really.

 

To me it looks brighter than RLM 02. Yes, I am sorry about this, my apologies to everybody!

Is it "silver" metallic paint/dope? Not to my eyes. (and I'm not sorry to say/write that)

Could it be "neutral light grey" (like prewar Lufthansa grey, or "Meserschmitt's own grey")? Yes, maybe.

Could it be RLM 76 (blueish light grey)? Yes, but compared to the "insignia white" the contrast is more than usually obeserved or expected.

Could it be gliders' ivory RLM 05? Yes, maybe, and it started as a glider and maybe it helps in termes of concealment (as long as the engine is not making smoke). I am sorry, no real good reason in favour, but no real reasons against it either, my apologies to everybody!

 

Would I dare to paint my Me 163a in a light neutral grey (like shown in those kit instructions)? Maybe, and that would probably look OK and I could justify it. Maybe it looks better than grrenish 02.

Would I dare to paint my Me 163a RLM 02? Yes, but it would not feel right. Maybe I'd add a lot of white and try to justify it.

Would I dare to paint my Me 163a RLM 05? (no because I am a coward, but there is a certain risk the real thing was! Oooooh, it hurts!)

Would I dare to paint my Me 163a RLM 65? No.

Would I dare to paint my Me 163a RLM 76? No.

 

(excuse me for putting so little sense in so many syllables! I apologize, good luck!)

Edited September 19, 2021 by Jochen Barett

[Tokyo Raider]

On 9/19/2021 at 3:03 PM, Jochen Barett said:

 

 

To me it looks brighter than RLM 02. Yes, I am sorry about this, my apologies to everybody!

 

I agree...  When comparing to other b/w photos of known RLM02, these prototypes look far lighter.  

 

They could even be RLM77.  That is what I will paint mine.  They look lighter than RLM76 to me.

[Troy Smith]

On 19/09/2021 at 23:03, Jochen Barett said:

To me it looks brighter than RLM 02. Yes, I am sorry about this, my apologies to everybody!

 

42 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

I agree...  When comparing to other b/w photos of known RLM02, these prototypes look far lighter.  

 

They could even be RLM77.  That is what I will paint mine.  They look lighter than RLM76 to me.

 

Note this image

 

CD+IO with 440188, same illumination, 440188 has a base coat that is likely 76 on fuselage and fin,  CD+IO is much darker.   This would correspond  overall 02

this is CD+IO  as well

 

This book

 

states "Like most prototypes and preproduction aircraft, the Me 163A series was painted overall RLM 02"   See page 48

 

I'll @SafetyDad and @FalkeEins  as they may know of more recent research to the contrary.

[The wooksta V2.0]

I've always read it was in 02. Most prototypes were.

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Note this image

 

CD+IO with 440188, same illumination, 440188 has a base coat that is likely 76 on fuselage and fin,  CD+IO is much darker.   This would correspond  overall 02

this is CD+IO  as well

+++

I do agree with your judgement that CD+IO has a darker paint on the fuselage than 440188, and yes, I would expect 440188's fuselage to be RLM 76 with some dark blotches.

 

I do agree that RLM 02 is the "accepted" color for Luftwaffe "prototypes". In case anybody paints any Luftwaffe prototype in RLM 02 I will keep my mouth shut, except in some special case when I would have any evidence of the contrary. And "evidence" (or reason to mention something) might even be a statement in a post war book.

 

In this case (all pics above and the video) the plane's color does not match my personal "opinion" or socialization of RLM 02 (or the expected representation on B&W film).

My feelings or opinion is far from scientific or "evidence", so please don't trust me. Maybe I am miscalibrated by seeing to much wrong representations of (too dark) RLM 02 model paint.

 

It is like with Russian propaganda, they don't present any facts, but they manage to raise doubt. Could I tell the difference between a glider in RLM 05 and a prototype / pre war plane in RLM 02?

Probably not, and to make things worse, general consensus is the DFS 194 ( http://www.aviastar.org/air/germany/dfs-194.php and https://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/dfs-194.html ) was RLM 05 even though it did have a Sondertriebwerk and was not a pure glider. And I admit in the pics shown at nevingtonwarmuseum the DFS 194's upper side does look a tad lighter than the underside color of the He 111 in the background (RLM 65 expected by me).

 

As mentioned before "Do not listen to me!" and "I am a coward." but take a look at other modellers' efforts (no hotlinking allowed at https://modelplanes.de/luftwaffe/lastensegler-luftwaffe/lippisch-dfs-194-frank-airmodel-vacu-formed/ )

https://modelplanes.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/14.jpg

and in this case ("representation") RLM 02 looks too dark to me - but the consensus is 194 in 05 and 163a in 02.

 

Another nice shot found on this site http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/luftwaffephotos/lme1631.htm

 

 

and on page 3

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW4/Me163-A1-22.jpg

[RainierHooker]

Thanks all. I always assumed they were RLM02, but was taken aback by the painting instructions that came with the kit (overall aluminum!?!?). Thus I started looking at every photograph I could find on the internet as nothing in my admittedly small reference library has pictures of the 163A. In turn I too felt that the photographic representation was far too light to be RLM02. Oddly enough though, video shows the aircraft in a much more "02-ish" tone. There is a short closeup sequence of Heini Dittmar in the cockpit of a 163A and when it pans to the aircraft, it is almost certainly a more medium gray compared to the white of his flight suit and the light colored harness straps.

 

In the end, I took the middle road: I sprayed the model last night with RLM02 lightened 20% with white...

[RainierHooker]

Oh, and post script:

 

For those contemplating building one of these, this model has bean a total bear. I don't claim to be an experienced or even good modeler, but this thing's fit is atrocious. I've spent more time filling and sanding on the diminutive Komet than on my concurrent Hasegawa Ju. 88A build. 

[Graham Boak]

Welcome to the joys of short-run kits made on short life tools but of subjects that would never be made by companies using much more expensive equipment.  

[SafetyDad]

@RainierHooker

 

You may want to have a look here

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/capture05.htm

 

I appreciate that colour pictures are not always easy to interpret or rely upon but 76 is suggested and looks possible?

 

HTH

 

SD

[Graham Boak]

Good picture, but of a later B-series prototype.  Lots of things happened late in the war, particularly relevant here is the pale variant of 76.  The A-series was considerably earlier, so I would doubt the use of 76.  Certainly not of the pale variant - if that is what it is.

[SafetyDad]

30 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Good picture, but of a later B-series prototype. 

Quite correct. I was so absorbed in finding the colour picture that I rather overlooked that small point!

 

SD

[RainierHooker]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Welcome to the joys of short-run kits made on short life tools but of subjects that would never be made by companies using much more expensive equipment.  

I've built a few kits from Special Hobby. Sure they are a bit more fiddly, but this one takes the cake. If course, special hobby isn't the real culprit, the 30 year old Condor molds are...

[Graham Boak]

Same company, different label.  All part of the MPM "empire".  You haven't tried Magna or KPL vacforms?  Memory has blotted out the name of the Anglo-Irish company that really was in at the beginning...

Edited September 22, 2021 by Graham Boak
KPL not KP as originally typed.

[Jochen Barett]

7 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

@RainierHooker

 

You may want to have a look here

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/capture05.htm

I appreciate that colour pictures are not always easy to interpret or rely upon but 76 is suggested and looks possible?

HTH

SD

Or contact him in person and ask for his point of view

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/profile/8323-rob-de-bie/

[tempestfan]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Same company, different label.  All part of the MPM "empire".  You haven't tried Magna or KP vacforms?  Memory has blotted out the name of the Anglo-Irish company that really was in at the beginning...

The Condor kits date back to the rather early days of Czech short run kits - anyone remember some of the earliest, a zillion of 262 variations with the Heller/Smer as base kits and varying sprues of new parts for the variations? ***shudder***

KP vacforms? Now that makes me curious...! The Anglo-Irish company would be VeeDay, I suppose? Vagn Espensen and Chris Gannon, soon to be divorced...

 

If I may throw some pennies in the pot: The very first photo upthread suggests a very highly polished airframe. A highly polished finish would likely appear lighter in certain lighting conditions. However, somehow that pic is incoherent with its very pale fuselage, the relatively dark wings, and the very strong mirroring of the Stammkennzeichen. I wonder if that pic was messed about with - but for what reason? And at a certain tangent, as I'm absolutely not sure how they were painted, but Mezeks also have a tendency to have wildly differing appearances, and I think they were painted in something very similar to 02. Perhaps 02 simply has some chameleon'atic properties?

[Graham Boak]

Yes, Veeday.  KPL (sorry, now corrected) vacforms were from America, and were the initials of the producer.  He appeared to have some problems with the third dimension of his moulds.   I perhaps could have mentioned Beechnut...

 

I didn't have any of the Condor 262 variants, but vaguely recall them under the MPM label.  Perhaps this varied with markets?  I think I only saw a very few Condor-labelled kits.  I gather the MPM toolmaker was responsible for the Karo-As series, which were much nicer.  I rather wish I'd had the Fw.187 - I did have the Fw.58 and the Special Hobby one is remarkably similar.

[SafetyDad]

12 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Or contact him in person and ask for his point of view

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/profile/8323-rob-de-bie/

 

I didn't know he was a member here - thanks!

 

SD

[Hook]

12 hours ago, tempestfan said:

I'm absolutely not sure how they were painted, but Mezeks also have a tendency to have wildly differing appearances, and I think they were painted in something very similar to 02.

These were RAL 6013 Schilfgrün.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[alt-92]

21 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I did have the Fw.58 and the Special Hobby one is remarkably similar.

Wasn't that MPM and Azur collab? 

[warhawk]

2 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Wasn't that MPM and Azur collab? 

 

Although all those companies technically 'under one roof', Special Hobby often revises and upgrades older MPM or Azur 1/72 molds, and reissues them under SH label.

(E.g. Me163A, Barracuda, Sea Otter, Bv155, etc)

[IanC]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:32 AM, RainierHooker said:

In the end, I took the middle road: I sprayed the model last night with RLM02 lightened 20% with white...

 

Seems very reasonable.

 

I'm glad you escaped from that particular rabbit hole. If I had a pound for every hour I've spent researching (aka pointlessly agonising over) RLM 02, RLM 76, late war greens, Dunkelgelb, olive drab, panzer grey, RAF Dark Earth, 3BO, Khaki Green 3, SCC.15 etc etc...

 

Well, you get the idea. 😄