He111 Help Needed Monogram or ICM? H vs. P Backdate

[Tokyo Raider]

Hi Brits-  I have a question.  Normally I am versed in German aircraft, but here is a hole in my exposure.  I am planning to build a 1/48 He111 in the Night Blitz colorscheme with the distemper black paint over the usual RLM70/71/65 scheme.  Since I just switched from 1/72 to 1/48 and I see there is a choice of Monogram or ICM and basically no He111P's in 1/48.  First off, there was a different engine in the H vs. P, but cowls look similar...  Can you tell me how to tell the cowl difference of a P vs. H?  Is it the carb intake location left vs right?

 

Any comments on the build are appreciated.  I know I have to build engines in the ICM, thats no big deal.   I have blitz schemes for the He111P.  Can the ICM kit be converted to a P?  what needs to be done to backdate?

 

thanks for any help you can give!  I said Carb intake, but its supercharger intake...  you knew what I meant!

Edited September 13, 2021 by Tokyo Raider

[tempestfan]

That's correct, the P has DB 601 with the supercharger intake to port, the H has Jumo 211 with intake starboard.

I can't really help you re buildability, I have several of the Revellograms but no ICM yet (or do I? Can't remember ;-)). In general, looking for an early H would be the best starting point IMHO, as P production IIRC was cancelled relatively early. The "early" Revellogram is a H-4/6, I think, so would potentially involve a bit more work. If ICM has a H-1/2, that would be the way to go, I think. Not sure whether P and early H used the same (or similar) props, but the blades on later H's were more padel'led, possibly twice. Otherwise, the main differences will be armament, especially in the fuselage sides (though I think this was retrofitted to earlier machines) and the gondola. Ps will have had the more fully domes Ikaria A-stand, I'm not sure whether this is included in the Revellogram, or only the later, shallower MG FF-capable variety.

[Graham Boak]

I would be happy using the early H props for a P. but there are other differences, noticeably the forward part of the gondola: solid, transparent with gun or armoured glass with gun.  It really does depend upon which sub-variant you want to do, but I'd agree that an H-6 kit would not be the most suitable.

[Tokyo Raider]

thanks tempest...  I am trying to see if the shape of the cowling was different between these two engines.  Probably nit enough to tell apart.  I have an ICM H-3 kit and it has the narrow prop blades.  The photo I am building is all blacked out and you cant tell if the machine is an H or not based on supercharger intake location.  The machine flying next to it is an H though, so I could just assume its an H.  I am aware of the side armament and gondola glass difference in the H.  Thanks!

[alt-92]

Were you looking at a specific unit that operated in that timeframe? It might help narrowing down the options.

[Tokyo Raider]

5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I would be happy using the early H props for a P. but there are other differences, noticeably the forward part of the gondola: solid, transparent with gun or armoured glass with gun.  It really does depend upon which sub-variant you want to do, but I'd agree that an H-6 kit would not be the most suitable.

Hi Graham-  The plane I am doing has the gun in the glass forward part of the gondola (gun sticking out is visible in photo flying).  That was on the H I believe.  So I can go with early H/ and the ICM kit of the H-3.

[Graham Boak]

I don't know the kit: some sources say the H-3 had this position but other photos show it without (e.g Romanian ones).  However if you have a photo then whatever sub-variant it is claimed to be is of little importance.

[Tokyo Raider]

1 minute ago, alt-92 said:

Were you looking at a specific unit that operated in that timeframe? It might help narrowing down the options.

sept 1940 I think.  Basically it wont let me post the photo I am trying to.  So I cant help.

 

[Tokyo Raider]

I think its II. kg55 they wore the distemper paint and the plane I want to do is red 'J'

[72modeler]

Here are some scale profile drawings that show the H and the P.

https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/qasxw.jpg

 

Here is a brief description of the variants that might be useful.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/he111_variants.html

 

Externally, the air intakes look to be on opposite sides,  as you have stated,  and depending upon the sub-type, could have had either the LH or full bomb bay blanked off for the installation of extra fuel tanks, with external bomb racks being fitted in their place; in  addition, the H had an extra beam gun position on each side fitted over the trailing edge of the wings with  MG15's, along with an extra crew member to man them. The P had fuselage beam guns mounted only above the center of each wing. There were some other armament differences  between the two variants, as outlined by the others who have posted replies. The H replaced the P and was basically an improved P, so depending upon the sub-types, they both could be very similar externally. The preceding was taken from the William Green Warplanes of the Third Reich.  I have the 1/72 Hasegawa He-111P  and He-111H kits and there is a sprue with the correct engine cowlings in each kit. Guessing the other externally visible differences would be easy to do. I'm not very well versed on the detail differences between the variants of the He-111, but I do have the Aero Detail, Kagero, and Classic Publications monographs on the He-111, and if you give me the sub-type you want to model, I can look up the detail differences for you. Best I can do off the top of my head.

Mike

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by 72modeler
added text

[alt-92]

Reason I asked about a unit is because KG.55 (at least I and II) were longtime users of the He-111P where other Gruppen already switched to the H series. 

KG55 were beam riders, II/KG 55 being equipped with Knickebein receivers and dropping flares for others.

 

[tempestfan]

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

Reason I asked about a unit is because KG.55 (at least I and II) were longtime users of the He-111P where other Gruppen already switched to the H series. 

KG55 were beam riders, II/KG 55 being equipped with Knickebein receivers and dropping flares for others.

 

Supporting this: I just grabbed Dierich's KG 55 history (1. ed. 1975), and it has a least three pics of identifiable Ps, two of which are in black (p. 157/8). The Red Kite booklet on KG 55 also shows predominantly Ps, but amazingly none (I have noticed) in black.

We had a discussion on early Hs some two years ago I think in which @Graham Boak also contributed - IIRC there was also a bit of discussion of Ps, so may be of assistance.

[gingerbob]

There's also this:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/wsw-modellbau-48-p002-heinkel-he-111-p--256690

 

 

though I don't know about availability.  Edit: in stock from the source:

 

http://wsw-modellbau.de/epages/ncs244425151111.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/44425151111/Categories/"1/48"/Flugzeuge

 

bob

Edited September 14, 2021 by gingerbob

[fishplanebeer]

From the references I have up to the P-2 and H-2 the ventral gondola did not have the forward firing MG but was 'solid' in appearance. Apparently in later/subsequent variants where this MG was installed it could also be plated over due to its ineffectiveness and appear to be solid,  or later replaced with a cannon gun with a heavier mount and frame.

 

Armament for the H-3 & 4 and P-4 seems to have been the same with some having the tail 'stinger' MG fitted as well, and as your pic shows the forward firing gondola gun in place then it's most likely to be one of these variants. My understanding is that the waist gun positions were in the same place in both the P and H as the increase in defensive armament was introduced to both at the same time on the production line and both had identical spare space limitations/issues.

 

Just to add that both KG55 and KG26, and possibly KG100 also, sported 'lamp black' distemper paint over the standard day light scheme during the 'Blitz' period 1940-41 using a variety of styles so a good pic should help sort this out.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

 

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

Just to add that the H-6 also had the revised dorsal gun perspex cover which was able to fully enclose the gunner so this would also have to b changed to the 'open' type seen on earlier variants.

 

Regards

Colin.

[fishplanebeer]

Sorry, but just to add that I agree with Graham that a H-6 wouldn't be the best start point for an earlier P version as along with the engine swap and dorsal turret perspex you'd need to replace the prop blades with finer shaped examples as well. The Airfix and Hasegawa 72nd scale kits have broadly the correct shape props and there are some good scale plans out there that also show the correct profile as well.

 

Regards

Colin.