A question about the painting of Carley Floats, late war

[Stephen Allen]

G’day

 

I have finally reached the point with my RN Captains class Frigate build where I am painting some of the detail items, like the Carley floats carried. I recall reading somewhere that late war, possibly towards the end of 1944, authority was given to paint Carley Floats in contrasting stripes of red and yellow, to increase their chances of being spotted. There is some colour photographic evidence of this occurring, notably the well known kodachrome of HMCS Thetford Mines and also HMCS Uganda with red and yellow floats on her fore and aft turrets. In some B&W photos of late war Captains contrasting colours on floats can be seen (including Conn, the ship I am modeling, and Aylmer after her ramming refit) and I presume this may be an indication of similar. I spent last evening going through the Admiral Fleet Orders set on the RAN’s history website looking for an order and start date, but so far no luck.

 

Could any of the learned members of the forum point me towards the directive or order authorising this painting to occur? There was also, as I recall, advice concerning the doubling up of floats to further increase their lifesaving potential, but, alas, I have failed to find that also.  Any advice on where to look would be greatly appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Steve

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi Steve,

 

This is something I haven't seen previously. I've just checked the documentation I have seen and have copies of, and it's not amongst the Confidential Admiralty Fleet Orders I have either. I'll just tag Richard @dickrd incase this rings a bell with him.

[Stephen Allen]

Thanks Jamie

 

My hypothesis at present is that in the absence of effective surface or air opposition late war, the practice was established to make the floats more visible to air and sea search. The colours seem to be similar to those used for some time on moored rescue floats for downed air crew.

 

I can add another recollection from Kevin Wilkinson, RNVR officer(recounted in the BBC People’s War series)  on board HMS Narborough, that this ship also had yellow and red striped rafts at least in the immediate post war period. The context is Narborough’s 1945 post hostilities visit to Spain to escort back interned British merchant ships. The Spanish authorities thought the ship had painted her Carley Floats up in the colours of the Spanish flag as a mark of respect, but Wilkinson explains that this was just how the rafts were painted anyway.
 

Its intriguing and I would love to be able to pinpoint the origins of the practice, how widespread, any limitations etc. The photo of HMCS Uganda is intriguing as the red and yellow painting is confined to the floats on turret tops while those lining the superstructure match the ship, which is suggestive of some desire not to compromise camouflage in some cases, though the photograph might simply have caught the ship mid-paint.

 

Steve

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

What does seem apparent from the AFOs, CAFOs and CBs that I do have is that this practise would have contradicted those orders still being promulgated on the subject of camouflage right up to the end of the war. That doesn't mean there wasn't such a contradictory order out there although I wouldn't be surprised if the practise were an unofficial initiative.

[dickrd]

On 9/13/2021 at 1:35 AM, Stephen Allen said:

G’day

 

I have finally reached the point with my RN Captains class Frigate build where I am painting some of the detail items, like the Carley floats carried. I recall reading somewhere that late war, possibly towards the end of 1944, authority was given to paint Carley Floats in contrasting stripes of red and yellow, to increase their chances of being spotted. There is some colour photographic evidence of this occurring, notably the well known kodachrome of HMCS Thetford Mines and also HMCS Uganda with red and yellow floats on her fore and aft turrets. In some B&W photos of late war Captains contrasting colours on floats can be seen (including Conn, the ship I am modeling, and Aylmer after her ramming refit) and I presume this may be an indication of similar. I spent last evening going through the Admiral Fleet Orders set on the RAN’s history website looking for an order and start date, but so far no luck.

 

Could any of the learned members of the forum point me towards the directive or order authorising this painting to occur? There was also, as I recall, advice concerning the doubling up of floats to further increase their lifesaving potential, but, alas, I have failed to find that also.  Any advice on where to look would be greatly appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Steve

 

I have not come across any (RN) Fleet Order mentioning this. I have come across a 1944 Canadian Fleet Order to the effect that carley rafts should be painted all yellow and have some contemporary colour evidence that this was followed by at least some Canadian ships. But with her yellow and red carley rafts Thetford Mines was clearly not following that one (and other RCN ships too)!  Glancing through late war photos it appears that the practice on RN ships was not at all widespread as it is hard (but not impossible) to find photos of it on ships other than Captain class and even within that class it was far from universal. I did also notice that there was considerable variety of styles to the way it was done: quartering, halving, thick and thin stripes, wide vertical band, wide horizonal band etc.  The authorization you suggest must have been loosely worded and was perhaps at Western Approaches Command level rather than Fleet level. I will keep a lookout for anything though.

 

I'd be most interested to see the photo of Uganda that you mention.

Edited September 14, 2021 by dickrd

[Stephen Allen]

https://groups.io/g/rcnhistory/topic/looking_for_a_photo/83192203?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,20,83192203

 

afraid my attempts to copy the photo have failed, but the above is the URL - post by Darren Scannell. If you type ‘carley floats Uganda’ into google it is the  fifth hit or so down the page. Perhaps it is a local command initiative. Interestingly some, but not all, of Julian Glossop’s models in the IWM collection have rafts painted red or yellow, or yellow and a darkish brown. The models span a range of war years, and it is likely that some from the earlier war period are not correct, but clearly there was something about carley floats in ww2 that spurred Julian to render them thus. In the absence of a source of authority its really a ship by ship assessment based on photos.  Thank you very much for your thinking on this.
 

Steve.

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, Stephen Allen said:

https://groups.io/g/rcnhistory/topic/looking_for_a_photo/83192203?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,20,83192203

 

afraid my attempts to copy the photo have failed, but the above is the URL - post by Darren Scannell. If you type ‘carley floats Uganda’ into google it is the  fifth hit or so down the page. Perhaps it is a local command initiative. Interestingly some, but not all, of Julian Glossop’s models in the IWM collection have rafts painted red or yellow, or yellow and a darkish brown. The models span a range of war years, and it is likely that some from the earlier war period are not correct, but clearly there was something about carley floats in ww2 that spurred Julian to render them thus. In the absence of a source of authority its really a ship by ship assessment based on photos.  Thank you very much for your thinking on this.
 

Steve.

 

The caption on the first photo in the post you refer to is incorrect. The ship is HMCS Ontario (ex HMS Minotaur) completed at Harland & Wolff Belfast in May 1945. Note the Mk.VI HADCT at the side of the bridge and aft with their distinctive headlamp radar dishes (Uganda had Mk.IV) and the two barrage directors on the front of the bridge (Uganda only had one). First time I’ve seen a colour version of that photo.

 

The third and fourth photos are of Uganda. I would date the fourth to 1946/47 due to the camouflage on the Firefly Mk.I aircraft on what would be HMCS Warrior in the foreground. Uganda was laid up or refitting from Aug 1947 to Jan 1952.

 

The Carley Floats in photo 3 have a more rounded appearance on the ends than those in photo 4. That would then indeed seem to date photo 3 into the 1950s.

 

The third and fourth photos in that sequence are of Uganda but date to postwar.

[Stephen Allen]

Thanks Ewen

 

The description as Uganda was that of the original post, so thank you for the correction. Now that you have pointed out the correct ship I was able to find the colour image on the Library and Archives Canada site. I had looked for Uganda but, of course, it wasn’t findable as such. Beautiful picture of a handsome ship. Many nice surprises in the library, more colour photos from a sequence including Thetford Mines and other RCN frigates in line ahead and a great shot of HMCS Monnow escorting a surrendered U Boat.

 

Steve

[socjo1]

... as you can see for example HMCS Copper Cliff (Castle class corvette) had similar way of rafts-painting:

photo from: 

http://www.forposterityssake.ca/Navy/HMCS_COPPER_CLIFF_K495.htm

 

Regards,

Michał

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by socjo1

[Stephen Allen]

Thanks Michal

 

your excellent rendition of Copper Cliff has been an inspiration! Lower Float has not yet been completely painted by the looks of the photo, with a darker shade showing through. I wonder if this is the brownish shade you see on one of the Thetford Mines floats - it matches the centre of the upoer float in tone.

 

cheers

 

Steve