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Mirage IIIEA armament


GiampieroSilvestri

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Could the early Mirage IIIEA also carry missiles under the wings?I read that aircraft number I-003 which was the first Mirage IIIEA that was delivered to argentina in the early 70s had only the wiring for missile under the fuselage.During the Falkland war argentinian airforce Mirage III were armed with a Matra R530 and two R550 and two underwing fuel tanks.I am planning to build I-003 when it was painted in blue allover in the mid 80s and the pictures I found show it only with fuel tanks.

 

Thank you very much

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

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So, as far as I know from reading up on the Falklands war, initially, a single batch of Mirages (reg. I-001 to 12) was delivered to Argentina in around 1968, these could not use R550 missiles, and were still active during the Falklands war, however there was also a second batch with higher reg. numbers, such as I-014 from the recent Modelsvit kit, that could be armed with 2 R550 on underwing pylons. Argentina also had Neshers and IAI Daggers at this point. Then around 1984, reg. I-003 was painted this skyline blue experimental color, but later on they changed this to a low viz grey-grey scheme they've been using later on. At some point later on, these early batch Mirages were surely upgraded to carry R550s, however, based on the limited lifetime of said skyline blue scheme, it is most likely the case that reg. I-003 circa 1985 didn't carry R550s on underwing pylons, even if it could. No picture of this scheme exist with anything else than 2 fuel tanks on it, at least not to my knowledge. However, there is a picture of a similar early batch Mirage carrying underwing missiles, and also the I-003 is in the same picture, and has missile rails installed but no missiles present, see above.

Edited by drake122
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50 minutes ago, drake122 said:

the I-003 is in the same picture, and has missile rails installed

I would assume that if missile rails are installed missiles could be carried as well. I assume an air arm would not fly rails just for fun..

 

Those rails in the picture are clearly the correct ones for the R550, the are canted outwards.

The EX Israeli Neshers most likely carried Shafrir missiles on straight pylons. ( as did the Cj/Bj 

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Now I am a bit confused.Here is a photo of I-003 on the ground and of another aircraft flying that have been taken in the year 2005 and 2011.It shows the aircraft without pylon and missiles.The pictures are from wikipedia.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

mirageiii27uk4w.jpg

 

mirageiiihnj08.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by GiampieroSilvestri
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2 hours ago, drake122 said:

So, as far as I know from reading up on the Falklands war, initially, a single batch of Mirages (reg. I-001 to 12) was delivered to Argentina in around 1968.

 

I-001 arrived in Argentina on February 5th, 1972, and the last from that batch, I-012, arrived on July 27th, 1973, all of them aboard C-130 from the AAF. The second batch (I-103 to I-019) arrived on 1979-1980. Two further IIIB arrived on 1982, after the war.

 

BTW, I-003 was the first Mirage to fly in Argentina, on January 10th, 1973.

 

2 hours ago, drake122 said:

Argentina also had Neshers and IAI Daggers at this point. 

 

Dagger is just the name given to the exported ex-IAF Neshers; they are the same aircraft.

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7 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

It shows the aircraft without pylon and missiles.

This means you can build her as you wish!

Pylons are dismountable, configurations change according to the mission. Also have a look at the different tanks mounted! 500 l supersonic, 1200 l and even 1700 l !

 

Maybe the FAA did not have too many of those R550 Magic capable pylons, as only the second batch originally was capable of carrying them. After the Falklands war, procurement if those things for sure got more complicated... why though the EA was not made compatible with the Israeli Shafur us beyond my understanding. Maybe lack if money and / or need!

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8 hours ago, exdraken said:

Maybe the FAA did not have too many of those R550 Magic capable pylons, as only the second batch originally was capable of carrying them. After the Falklands war, procurement if those things for sure got more complicated... why though the EA was not made compatible with the Israeli Shafur us beyond my understanding. Maybe lack if money and / or need!

 

By December, 1982 the FAA started receiving the ex-IAF Mirage IIICJ which where already Shafrir-compatible, as where the Daggers. So, plenty of Shafrir carriers around, and yes, funds were probably scarce by then to add that capability to the remaining IIIEA.

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2 hours ago, Fukuryu said:

 

By December, 1982 the FAA started receiving the ex-IAF Mirage IIICJ which where already Shafrir-compatible, as where the Daggers. So, plenty of Shafrir carriers around, and yes, funds were probably scarce by then to add that capability to the remaining IIIEA.

Although it seems the service the CJ/BJ gave was only very limited, with tired airframes and concrete weight instead of its radar...

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53 minutes ago, exdraken said:

Although it seems the service the CJ/BJ gave was only very limited, with tired airframes and concrete weight instead of its radar...

 

Most of those airframes where more than 20 years old when they arrived in Argentina, with the lowest count being 1247 flight hours and the highest 2517, most of them below 2000 hr. Truth to be told, I don't know how much that is in aircraft years, but indeed they were veterans of three wars and countless skirmishes, where they were flown low, fast, loaded with weapons and tanks and manoeuvred briskly.

 

The counterweight in the nose was to keep the CG after taking away the useless (for the IAF at least) Cyrano radar; that modification was done in the early 70s, sometimes at the same time they were re-engined with the Atar 9C.

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On 9/10/2021 at 2:45 PM, drake122 said:

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So, as far as I know from reading up on the Falklands war, initially, a single batch of Mirages (reg. I-001 to 12) was delivered to Argentina in around 1968, these could not use R550 missiles, and were still active during the Falklands war, however there was also a second batch with higher reg. numbers, such as I-014 from the recent Modelsvit kit, that could be armed with 2 R550 on underwing pylons. Argentina also had Neshers and IAI Daggers at this point. Then around 1984, reg. I-003 was painted this skyline blue experimental color, but later on they changed this to a low viz grey-grey scheme they've been using later on. At some point later on, these early batch Mirages were surely upgraded to carry R550s, however, based on the limited lifetime of said skyline blue scheme, it is most likely the case that reg. I-003 circa 1985 didn't carry R550s on underwing pylons, even if it could. No picture of this scheme exist with anything else than 2 fuel tanks on it, at least not to my knowledge. However, there is a picture of a similar early batch Mirage carrying underwing missiles, and also the I-003 is in the same picture, and has missile rails installed but no missiles present, see above.

After the 1982 Falklands war but before 1984 thats what Argentians historians mention to me, from 1984 they started to upgrade with fir noses on the Daggers

 

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9 hours ago, Fukuryu said:

 

By December, 1982 the FAA started receiving the ex-IAF Mirage IIICJ which where already Shafrir-compatible, as where the Daggers. So, plenty of Shafrir carriers around, and yes, funds were probably scarce by then to add that capability to the remaining IIIEA.

But they were in a very bad state, they need about 2 years to build up after almost completely rebuilt at Rio IV Aircraft Depot

 

Regards

 

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5 hours ago, Fukuryu said:

 

The counterweight in the nose was to keep the CG after taking away the useless (for the IAF at least) Cyrano radar; that modification was done in the early 70s, sometimes at the same time they were re-engined with the Atar 9C.

Hi there

 

One thing is that the Argentinians were in a very unique position as they had Mirage IIICs, Mirage IIIE and IAI Dagger they found that still the Mirage IIIC was the most manoubrable of them all but the Daggers had more fuel and last longer in dogfights

 

Regards

 

Armando

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1 hour ago, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

One thing is that the Argentinians were in a very unique position as they had Mirage IIICs, Mirage IIIE and IAI Dagger they found that still the Mirage IIIC was the most manoubrable of them all but the Daggers had more fuel and last longer in dogfights

 

Regards

 

Armando

 

Hola, Armando.

 

The fact that the Mirage was more manoeuvreable than the Nesher/Dagger but the latter had better loitering time due to more internal fuel was something already knew by the IAF pilots from the beginning of the Nesher service, veteran pilots prefering the Mirage while newer, missile-confident pilots preferred the newer aircraft. For sure a little less manouverability was not an issue for Giora Epstein, who got more than half his victories flying Neshers.

Edited by Fukuryu
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4 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

One thing is that the Argentinians were in a very unique position as they had Mirage IIICs, Mirage IIIE and IAI Dagger they found that still the Mirage IIIC was the most manoubrable of them all but the Daggers had more fuel and last longer in dogfights

That is rather clear and obvious!

The whole idea of building the Neshers,/ Mirage 5 was to have a more attack oriented aircraft, with more fuel and weapons pylons, but without a  interception radar, as  the Israelis considered it unnecessary... (poor range against fighter sized targets, and generally good visibility in and around Israel..) the IAI Kfir was a direct evolution if the Mirage 5/ Nesher, putting even more emphasis on payload and range....

The Mirage IIIE was again longer and heavier, electronically more advanced but also heavier...

In FAA service all had the same engines though!

 

 

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3 minutes ago, exdraken said:

That is rather clear and obvious!

The whole idea of building the Neshers,/ Mirage 5 was to have a more attack oriented aircraft, with more fuel and weapons pylons, but without a  interception radar, as  the Israelis considered it unnecessary... (poor range against fighter sized targets, and generally good visibility in and around Israel..) the IAI Kfir was a direct evolution if the Mirage 5/ Nesher, putting even more emphasis on payload and range....

The Mirage IIIE was again longer and heavier, electronically more advanced but also heavier...

In FAA service all had the same engines though!

 

 

Hi Exdraken 

 

There was a thing thats it's really interesting those Daggers use imperial or inches bolts nuts and fittings and those French used milimetric ones

 

There was a special fixures on the fuel tanks because of that and also a small trouble during the Falklands war because that 

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1 hour ago, RAGATIGER said:

bolts nuts and fitting

Inyeresyjng indeed!

Which bolts and nuts?

Maybe the ones of exactly those weapons pylons? Also the Israelis designed their own  jettisonable 500 l supersonic fuel tanks!

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The original batch of Mirage IIIEA were indeed only wired for the R530, the second batch were wired for R530 and R550.

 

There was some repositioning of airframes during the Falklands War when the Argentinians were worried about Vulcan strikes on Buenos Aires, Falklands the Air War describes which airframes were deployed where using Argentinian source documentation.  I'm away from my references right now so I can't confirm which aircraft were deployed where.

 

I don't know what happened after the war, logic dictates the Argentinians rewired their aircraft accordingly (by reverse engineering)?  I don't know for sure.

 

You need to find a photo of I-003 at any point in its career with R550's fitted, if you can then you know it was possible and if the final scheme is the blue scheme then it's perfectly legitimate to model it in this condition.

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5 hours ago, Wez said:

I don't know what happened after the war, logic dictates the Argentinians rewired their aircraft accordingly (by reverse engineering)?  I don't know for sure.

 

No evidence on that on my Argentinian-published sources, but is not a subject I have the most knowledge of. A bit of trivia: no first-batch Mirage IIIEA were lost during the war, only I-015 and I-019 from the second batch. 

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7 hours ago, Fukuryu said:

 

No evidence on that on my Argentinian-published sources, but is not a subject I have the most knowledge of. A bit of trivia: no first-batch Mirage IIIEA were lost during the war, only I-015 and I-019 from the second batch. 

 

Daniel,

 

Thanks for that, also the losses tell me that the later batch were deployed to the Falklands whilst the earlier batch of aircraft were the ones pulled back to protect the capital city from a feared bombing attack.

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