RLM 79 confusion

[opus999]

I've got a couple desert camo Bf-109s in the stash, but I'm not sure which RLM 79 to use!  I have a Hataka Luftwaffe set with an RLM 79a and RLM 79b.  The "a" is a very light tan and the "b" is a brown (it might be the other way around, but you get the idea).  Based on color photos I've seen (I recognize all the color issues that come with vintage color photos) neither seems right to me.  The brown is too dark and the tan is too light.

 

I decided to order Mr. Color's RLM 79 based on some well done Bf-109 builds that used it, but was surprised that it was very close to the Hataka RLM 79 brown, which seems too dark and doesn't seem to match the color I saw in those builds.

 

I guess my question(s) are -- should the Bf-109 desert color be more tan or more brown?  And what's the deal with the RLM 79a and 79b?

 

Thanks!

[David Hadland]

I'm going to guess that the RLM 79a was used in the beginning of the air war and the RLM 79b was used later in the campaign. I've just looked up the Mr.Color H66 and that looks right for the Luftwaffe in Africa.

 

Or you could try/look at Humbrol Enamel Paints 93 Desert Yellow or 94 Brown Yellow.

 

Hope this helps.  

[Chuck1945]

My references are not right in front of me but… There was an early light tan color that was used for instance on Bf 109E models. Initially there was supposition that it was the Italian tan, but from what I recall, while it was perhaps Italian influenced it not the actual Italian paint. Later, c.Bf 109F use, a darker brownish ‘tan’ came into use. This is what the Mr Color paint is supposed to represent. So… if you are doing an Emil use the lighter color and use the darker one if doing an F model.

 

We don’t often get over to the tri-cities, but we do always stop at the Mercantile when we are passing through

Edited September 7, 2021 by Chuck1945
Added comment

[janneman36]

The Hataka RLM 79a should be pretty close as it was most probably a Italian color .

Funny enough I got a pot of it in the mail yesterday as I ordered some Hataka paints and tested it against my paint chips I have and it is pretty close when seen a natural lighting!

The pictures below gives an idea how they look but are not completely an exact representation due to the fact I have taken them just now in artificial light but I hope you get an idea how they differ..😉

 

this one is from the AK book which have a printed chip ans is not as accurate as a real paint chip but to the eye it is pretty close to what I see in normal day light...and this is also for the other paint chip which is the monogram rendition from the eighties and this one is really close albiet the Hataka paint is a tad lighter which is not bad at all if you take the scale effect in account!

 

 

Monogram painting guide 

 

hope it helps and maybe I have the time this week to do a proper examination on these colors..

The other German colors I have bought seem to come close as well so I do tend too think the colors are pretty correct😉

 

cheers, Jan

[Giampiero Piva]

From the old but very useful 'Official Monogram Painting Guide' . HTH

Cheers

Giampiero

 

 

[janneman36]

6 minutes ago, Giampiero Piva said:

From the old but very useful 'Official Monogram Painting Guide' . HTH

Cheers

Giampiero

 

 

The same as i posted😉

However you can clearly see what a good light source does to the colors.

 

Cheers, Jan

 

[Graham Boak]

The suggestion that the early colour was Italian was a theory by Ken Merrick which was willingly adopted by later commentators as if gospel truth.  However he has since discovered the original German sources for the colour and shown that the aircraft were painted before delivery to the theatre (or at least, some of them were, given the existence of aircraft with European colours in North Africa.)  Possibly they were based on Italian experience, although which of the four Italian Giallo Mimetics could have been involved is unclear.    But not "most probably" an Italian colour.  More likely the Germans were aware of the colour of sand from their own experience?

 

As I understand it, later Bf.109Es were also in the later variant of the colour, specifically the fighter bombers.

 

From RAF Intelligence, based on investigation of captured aircraft dumps, at least some Bf.109s were painted in Middle Stone.  Believe that if you like.

[Giorgio N]

In addition to Graham's comment on the presence of several Italian "sand yellows", the reference to the Italian colours in the Monogram guide makes wonder what they actually mean for the Italian colours mentioned... are these the colours of the "Serie Mimetica" ? And if so of course, which of the several yellows and greens is used for the chip ?

Or are these the later colours of the Tavola 10 (issued 1941 but circulated in Spring 1942) ? There is quite a difference between all these paints so a single chip for an Italian sand or green does not work. I have a feeling that the colours mentioned in the book are the latter but not having the book I can't comment directly.

 

One thing is however interesting: the colour Nocciola Chiaro 4 from the Tavola 10, that replaced all the previous camouflage yellows, is darker than these and is really a medium brown, more like a tan colour. Seems that the Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica followed the same path in the evolution of the camouflage colours for use in desert areas, both replacing light yellows with a medium brown. If this happened because they independently came to the same conclusions or there was some exchange on the matter I don't know, most likely the former but I wouldn't have any evidence one way or the other.

 

[Jochen Barett]

If it would have been me sitting in the RLM in Berlin in the early 40ies, hearing the Luftwaffe was to deploy planes to Afrika, I would have checked

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Darna,+Libyen/@30.7827957,20.9499115,753552m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x14802038a50d54cd:0x64edb1a12fdfa66b!8m2!3d32.755613!4d22.6377432

and thought to myself "An object a tad darker than the background is less visible then a brighter object on a darker background", exchanged a few eMails with the Kameraden at the front "is there a need for scale effect or some lightening/blueing of colors to adjust for haze in the air?", called up the usual paint makers on the phone and told them to check what pigments they could obtain from Italy to match that tone and my LDV would almost be complete. Then I'd check which supplier hast the most attractive fringe benefit concept to me (money from some, hookers from Hamburg, other incentives from other suppliers).

 

Later I would issue color chips, some of these would bleach, some would yellow/tarnish, most got lost, and I would use Warneke und Böhm paint this time and Gustav Ruth next time (shrugging my shoulders observing slight shifts in color and brightness), and a few years later I would hear about modellers arguing on the accuracy of their model paints, and I'd remember all those endless boring talks we had about varying supplies of Ocker from Italy and all the complaints of paint chalking and weahthering and the troops "cleaning" our beloved planes with improper substances.

[JackG]

Merrick's Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings, 1933-45, Volume 1 has a publication date 2004.  It mentions Czech author Tomas Chory found genuine RLM samples of the initial 78 and 79 shades for the tropics,  They were inserted as a loose sample  in the L.Dv.521/1 manual.  So the notion of Italian paints used on Luftwaffe aircraft has been nixed for a while now.  

 

This book is now a rare find and quite pricey. but apparently it included colour charts composed of painted chips. 

 

Sovereign Hobbies mentions Merrick's book,  they offer two options of Sandgelb 78, but only one of 79.

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/blogs/sovereign-about-us-research-and-development/references-how-to-tell-the-good-from-the-bad

 

AK also quote Merrick's book as well as having Kiroff on board to offer advice , but they are known for altering their paints to suit their ideal of scale effect.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by JackG

[janneman36]

During the last Bf 109 groupbuild someone used Humbrol Mid stone 225 and this is the yellow version of the mid stone they carry in their range and it looked pretty good as well!.

The point I was trying to make at least is that the colors Hataka provided in the lacquer range that I ordered is good enough for me as most German colors I bought came close to the paint chips I have.

Though the paint chips provided in the monogram maybe wrongly named but it gives a nice idea how it probably  looked as they still come close to other references I have and sometimes totally not to a few other ones .

In the end you have to decide what you like to put on your kit and you don’t have to use what is made the norm bij some manufacturers!

This always will be a  and that will be the same for other colors as well German or non German 

 

cheers, Jan

[opus999]

9 hours ago, janneman36 said:

This always will be a  and that will be the same for other colors as well German or non German

Indeed.  But sometimes I just have to ask!   

 

22 hours ago, David Hadland said:

I'm going to guess that the RLM 79a was used in the beginning of the air war and the RLM 79b was used later in the campaign.

I *knew* I'd read this somewhere before!  I was coming up empty last night, so I gave up and asked the question.   I blame the long weekend.  

 

22 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

My references are not right in front of me but… There was an early light tan color that was used for instance on Bf 109E models. Initially there was supposition that it was the Italian tan, but from what I recall, while it was perhaps Italian influenced it not the actual Italian paint. Later, c.Bf 109F use, a darker brownish ‘tan’ came into use. This is what the Mr Color paint is supposed to represent. So… if you are doing an Emil use the lighter color and use the darker one if doing an F model.

Hi Chuck! The two models I've been looking at starting are a Bf-109E-7 tan w/ RLM80 splotches and a Bf-109F-4 solid brown.  Both African theater. So this is valuable info.

 

22 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

We don’t often get over to the tri-cities, but we do always stop at the Mercantile when we are passing through

My kids love the pumpkin patch in the fall.  They just built a second one a couple miles from my house, but it's quite a bit smaller than the one in Pasco.

 

22 hours ago, janneman36 said:

this one is from the AK book which have a printed chip ans is not as accurate as a real paint chip but to the eye it is pretty close to what I see in normal day light...and this is also for the other paint chip which is the monogram rendition from the eighties and this one is really close albiet the Hataka paint is a tad lighter which is not bad at all if you take the scale effect in account!

Yeah! I agree.  The Hataka 79b looks a lot like the 79 (1942), and the Hataka 79a is a little lighter than the 79 (1941).   

[Duncan B]

19 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

If it would have been me sitting in the RLM in Berlin in the early 40ies, hearing the Luftwaffe was to deploy planes to Afrika, I would have checked

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Darna,+Libyen/@30.7827957,20.9499115,753552m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x14802038a50d54cd:0x64edb1a12fdfa66b!8m2!3d32.755613!4d22.6377432

and thought to myself "An object a tad darker than the background is less visible then a brighter object on a darker background", exchanged a few eMails with the Kameraden at the front "is there a need for scale effect or some lightening/blueing of colors to adjust for haze in the air?", called up the usual paint makers on the phone and told them to check what pigments they could obtain from Italy to match that tone and my LDV would almost be complete. Then I'd check which supplier hast the most attractive fringe benefit concept to me (money from some, hookers from Hamburg, other incentives from other suppliers).

 

Later I would issue color chips, some of these would bleach, some would yellow/tarnish, most got lost, and I would use Warneke und Böhm paint this time and Gustav Ruth next time (shrugging my shoulders observing slight shifts in color and brightness), and a few years later I would hear about modellers arguing on the accuracy of their model paints, and I'd remember all those endless boring talks we had about varying supplies of Ocker from Italy and all the complaints of paint chalking and weahthering and the troops "cleaning" our beloved planes with improper substances.

That's the best answer to the recurring question "what model paint best matches RLM......" I have ever seen and should be pinned to the top of this section.

I'm a keen Luftwaffe modeller and have amassed quite a few reference books on the subject over the years but in the end I'm also quite keen on keeping what's left of my sanity so tend to go with the paints I am happy to use and look good enough to me. A very unscientific approach and one that will raise a few hackles with the Experten no doubt.

 

Duncan B

[ckw]

Just wondering ... I'm sure we have all had the experience of painting a room and having to buy an extra tin of paint only to find that the new tin differed slightly from the old tin. Indeed the better paint manufacturers include batch numbers on the tin to help you get an exact match across multiple tins.

 

On the assumption that modern paint production is at least as good as that used in WWII, batches of paint then must have had some variation at point of production. If a given batch was not an exact match to an RLM colour chip, was it poured down the drain or was a degree of variation acceptable? Surely in a war stressed economy (both for allies and axis) such waste would be hard to justify. Hence I would suspect there would be at least as much variation in paint colour as there is across different batches of B&Q Magnolia.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Graham Boak]

Yes, of course there were, but even one tin of B&G magnolia doesn't look wildly different from another.  They still look more like magnolia than any other shade of yellow, and are often indistinguishable unless placed directly next to each other, perhaps with a bit of peering involved!  The same is true of wool dyes, as anyone you know who knits will testify.

 

To pick an extreme WW2 case, it is said that no paint manufacturer's version of Olive Drab was ever rejected by the USAAF.  However I think the more interesting question is how different paints will change with time/weather:  RAF Dark Green will certainly go either go browner or to a brighter green.

 

[ckw]

1 minute ago, Graham Boak said:

Yes, of course there were, but even one tin of B&G magnolia doesn't look wildly different from another.

Perhaps you could explain that to my wife😁

 

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

 However I think the more interesting question is how different paints will change with time/weather:  RAF Dark Green will certainly go either go browner or to a brighter green.

 

Quite. I see colour chips as a sort of Platonic ideal ... they are what the colour should be, but that does not mean that any specific aircraft at a given point in time appeared in that exact shade.  Personally I'm happy to accept what the better model paint manufacturer's propose as RLM 79 or whatever. Life is too short to go chasing after variations which can probably never be proved one way or another.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Giorgio N]

10 minutes ago, ckw said:

Perhaps you could explain that to my wife😁

 

 

Quite. I see colour chips as a sort of Platonic ideal ... they are what the colour should be, but that does not mean that any specific aircraft at a given point in time appeared in that exact shade.  Personally I'm happy to accept what the better model paint manufacturer's propose as RLM 79 or whatever. Life is too short to go chasing after variations which can probably never be proved one way or another.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

 

Whatever way a colour is portrayed, be it a chip or a certain description in whatever colour system, it's not an idea, it's a specification to which the supplier has to adhere. Of course within certain specified tolerances. If the paint does not fall within these tolerances, it may be rejected or may be accepted. If accepted, it may be accepted as is or may be accepted with the supplier being paid less than originally agreed. Supplying paints to a military force is  a commercial transaction and as such is regulated by a number of rules and agreements. If the supplier falls short on something, the final customer is often only too happy to pay them less than agreed, reason why suppliers generally try to stick to specifications.

 

This is why comparisons with things like home paints do not work, we do not know anything about the specifications for such paints and the tolerances they are manufactured to. The technology today may be better than it was 70 year ago but even today certain industries accept paints with very loose tolerances while others only accept paints or dyes that match extremely strict specifications. Depending on where the ones each of us is familiar with fall, we may have one perception or the other of what can or not be acceptable.

When it comes to military standards, generally the tolerances are clearly stated. Some even mention what kind of deviation can be accepted on an aircraft in service and when the deviation is such that a repaint would be required. With these in our hands we can understand what the paint is supposed to look like and what kind of variation could be expected.

Now, I said the paint, the final painted aircraft in service may of course change for a number of reasons. This however is not the matter discussed in this thread ! The matter here is the presence of two quite different colours with the same code. That brings another problem with paint standards: these are not necessarily fixed in time but can vary for one reason or the other and this has happened many times even for some pretty famous ones. Not only the standards change but formulation of paints can also change for a number of reasons (availability of pigments, new regulations on materials, ecc.) and this can have an effect on the final product. Now did RLM 79 change because of this or for some other reason ? I'll let those who know this subject discuss this but I'd like to close with an anecdote: a fellow Italian modeller mentioned how Macchi at some point wrote a letter to the relevant authorities asking for the permission to use a batch of paint that was darker than what the standard Nocciola Chiaro 4 was supposed to be. We don't know what the reply of the Air Force was, some researchers have mentioned that a number of late MC.202s seem to feature a much darker brown than usual so maybe the response was positive.. or maybe the difference in pictures was just a result of the uncertainties with colour pictures... in any case what matters here is the the supplier of the aircraft asked for an official permission, they did not simply use an out-of-spec paint because it was available. Now this was in Italy in 1942/43, other air forces sure had different procedures but gives an idea of what selling to an air force can be like.

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, Duncan B said:

That's the best answer to the recurring question "what model paint best matches RLM......" I have ever seen and should be pinned to the top of this section.

I'm a keen Luftwaffe modeller and have amassed quite a few reference books on the subject over the years but in the end I'm also quite keen on keeping what's left of my sanity so tend to go with the paints I am happy to use and look good enough to me. A very unscientific approach and one that will raise a few hackles with the Experten no doubt.

 

Duncan B

Thanks, but please don't get me wrong 😉

 

In the olden days around here it was a real struggle to get proper paints, even for the then common Luftwaffe Norm 72. It was a lesser known fact that there was a RAL system and topside colors were 7012 and 6014, but you could see the actual planes (I will refuse to comment on silver and/or silvergrey F 104 under sides! (some were silver, trust me)) and you could easily tell your model did not look right with Humbrol 30 as a representation of RAL 6014. This was painful. A friend managed to get some original 6014 paint (a jam jar full) from a body shop in the neighborhood that did some work for the Bundeswehr, but the paint would produce extra thick layers and took ages to cure on a modell.

 

Regarding RLM colors Humbrol Authentics made quite a few things better (later even including RAL paints), but still there was doubt about late war colors (even to owners of Hitchcock's 'O-nine' gallery) and yes, desert camo of vehicles and planes retained a few mysteries. Later things got even better, but not every paint maker claiming to produce "accurate" or "authentic" colors manages to convince me (Jamie is convincing and stating his sources! Still I wonder if there was just the one LDV with no tolerances or maybe there were changes (intentionally or unintended)). Variations of 65, 76 and 79? Beats me, what the real thing behind this is. Maybe 79 was altered according to the area of the fighting more to the West or to the East? Maybe due to availability of Ocker (ocher)? Maybe for ... Maybe the LDV changed by accident or one surviving LDV bleached, the other one tarnished I do not know, but I'd like to!

 

So, yes, I am obsessed a bit with color accuracy, but it helps a lot to know you are obsessed and to cling onto that bit of sanity left in us.

 

109 Es look "more convincing" (to me) in that yellowisher 79 (with RLM 80 dots), 109Fs and G look better in that more hazelnutty 79.

Do I have any evidence? Nope, not really.

Do I know the background to 79a and 79b? No.

Would I care? Yes, a lot!

[JackG]

The reason for changes in RLM 78 and 79 are spelled out in Merrick's book.  Intentionally or by coincidence, Jochen Barett somewhat parodied this in his post that started off "If it would have been me sitting in the RLM in Berlin in the early 40ies..."

 

Back to Merrick, he states the initial sandgelb was created to be an "exact match to the desert sand of North Africa."  This was fine when the aircraft was in the air, but when parked on the ground,  light reflection would create a more pale appearance, thus comprising any camouflage benefits.  Additionally, rapid fading due to the environment was also not taken into consideration.

 

The  blue RLM 78 undersides were the opposite problem.   They were created too dark, and so for the second version of 78 was lightened for a better match to the Mediterranean skies.  Merrick's explanation for this one is more based on theory, but the short version is this initial blue was purposely  designed dark so as to be a viable option as an upper surface colour as well as lower.

 

regards,

Jack

[JackG]

https://emmasplanes.com/index.php/paints/rlm-colors/

 

Came across this site, and found it interesting the digital chips for RLM 78.   It looks like they could be just the same colour as light and dark versions.  So wondered what if we have a bottle of the 2nd incarnation  of underside blue that we are happy with, but want to have the earlier dark version - maybe just add some black?

 

 

From a digital stand point, it does seem to work.  Using the digital value for RLM Black from the same site, an online colour blender is used.  An exact match results on the third colour bar.   If I've calculated correctly, about 18% black is required, but sounds a bit much for actual paints.  Probably have to rely on the Mk I eyeball ...

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

[JPuente54]

This is a very good discussion in this thread. I do remember @Graham Boak's quote from "Luftwaffe Colors" about the possible use of Italian paints. A source I cannot remember(apologies for not recalling the source) did mention that the RLM did offer a slightly different shade of 79. He or they used "Sandbraun" to differ it from "Sandgelb". DBI/Compucolour paints offered it as RLM 79 and RLM 79a to show the difference. I have them somewhere in a large container in my basement. Apparently the people  in the RLM did not believe that the difference in shade was large enough to warrant a change in the RLM number system. I.E. a RLM 81 Sandbraun(or whatever number was next).

True North Precision Paints has RLM 79I "Sandgelb" and RLM79II "Sandgelb" II in their paint line. Most likely I shall have to stir and mix throughly, paint some runners, and then figure out the colors from there.

Oh, IIRC, Compucolours had RLM 79 Sandgelb and RLM 79a Sandbraun  on the lid label(or the other way around).

[JackG]

The reason for not changing the names and RLM numbers for these two particular sets of paints was probably because their second rendition was intended as amendments and not as a replacements?   Another way of thinking, why clutter the RLM charts by including the first set of tropical paints when they would only be in existence until used up.

 

As far as dates go, there is nothing definite, but the finalization of preferred tropical paints occurred  "... at the close of 1941  and some time early 1942."  - per Merrick.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[David Hadland]

Just to throw something else into the mix, I've got the Italeri Heinkel 111 H-6, of the 5 versions that can be done oob, the 5th is Sonderkommando Blaich, North Africa 1942. The Paint scheme for this aircraft is for the Bottom RLM 65 Hellblau Federal Standard F.S. 35352 / Italeri Acrylic Paint 4778AP

For the Top it is RLM 79 Sandgelb F.S 30215 / 4789AP

[Duncan B]

8 hours ago, David Hadland said:

Just to throw something else into the mix, I've got the Italeri Heinkel 111 H-6, of the 5 versions that can be done oob, the 5th is Sonderkommando Blaich, North Africa 1942. The Paint scheme for this aircraft is for the Bottom RLM 65 Hellblau Federal Standard F.S. 35352 / Italeri Acrylic Paint 4778AP

For the Top it is RLM 79 Sandgelb F.S 30215 / 4789AP

Straight away when I see FS standard numbers quoted alongside WW2 Luftwaffe colours (or any other WW2 colours for that matter) by model instructions I tend to ignore them as an attempt to sell their own paint products (matched to FS) rather than to try to match to real Luftwaffe colours. I'm fairly sure that the RLM didn't match their colours to a US system that didn't even exist at the time so the best anyone is going to get is an approximation based on a model company's desire to sell paint or due to lazy research by the kit manufacturer. That approximation might well be good enough for most folk but the 'Experten' would be depositing kittens from their posterior at the very thought of it.

My take on it all now, having previously bought almost every paint range in existence to try to find the "most accurate" RLM colours, is that once I found a set of colours that I was happy with the look of on the models I stuck with those colours whether they were the best matches to the paint chips (which don't all match anyway) or not. I do have to mix paint ranges because there isn't one complete range that I am personally happy with across the RLM spectrum. The colours that give me most trouble with when matching to the currently accepted paint chips are 65, 76, and 78. It's a heresy in some quarters but I lighten them to get a less in your face brightness as I just don't think they look right on a scale model.

There, in a nutshell is the problem with modellers, researchers can go to great efforts to produce the most accurate colour chips which reputable paint manufacturers follow only for modellers (me included) to go "pah, I don't like it, I think it should look like this instead!" I know it drives our semi tame paint manufacturer, Jamie Duff, daft when folk just randomly add white to his beautifully crafted paints "for a bit of scale effect" or in my case "because I expect it to look different"!

 

Duncan B

[JPuente54]

I was surprised to read that RLM 78 Himmelblau was also made in two shades as well. I did not know that until I read this thread. RLM 79 in two shades I had known since the mid '70s when I bought the 3 volumes of "Luftwaffe Colors" and read various bits of it. RLM 78 Himmelblau was new information to me. It is always good to learn new things. BM offers a lot of good information in its threads. Thank you.

Joe