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FAA F4u-1a Corsair, questions, questions ,questions ...


Gordon Parker
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ust ordewred Time Capsule Fighter and with Dana's books arriving soon and what I have learned here I will have most of the references lined up.

Would love to find the Dupont color chips mentioned but no luck so far.

Gord

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I can’t get Colourcoats either Gord and I live a lot closer.  Can’t get them from Uk, Netherlands won’t ship them here either, Germany & Denmark didn’t have them.  

 

I usually use Xtracrylics  and looked at Hataka as an alternative that I can source from Europe but they are lighter than Xtracrylics.  Neither range has Sky equivalent in their range either...  So I’m looking for a mix too...

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2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I have to say that in my copy of the Monogram book the ANA610 looks far from the colour above, and my monitor is usually pretty good at colours.  Here the green has entirely disappeared and it looks almost fawn.

I agree.  I mentioned that they looked very washed out.   

2 hours ago, Gordon Parker said:

Using the FS book as a reference, what would be your bext match for ANA 610? In Dana's comment he suggested that 34424 was often cited but he had his doubts (sorry to paraphrase but believe I have the gist of his comments).

I have very good colour vision. 

34424 is very close to ANA 610.   

34583 is slightly yellower than MAP Sky .

My FS deck is FS 595B, made in 1989.

 

I'll try some photos in direct sun, and see if that's any better.    The one above was mid afternoon,  outside in daylight but not direct sun.   It was done quickly, as had other things to do.   Apologies if this muddies the subject.    

 

2 hours ago, Gordon Parker said:

The other question is how close would Dupont 71-021 be to ANA 610, are they a perfect match?

AFAIK, Dupont 71-021 is the color on the P-40 bits shown by @LDSModeller

I believe ANA 610 is later.   @Dana Bell  maybe able to add more.

 

HTH

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5 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I usually use Xtracrylics  and looked at Hataka as an alternative that I can source from Europe but they are lighter than Xtracrylics.  Neither range has Sky equivalent in their range either...  So I’m looking for a mix too...

I had read that Xtracrylix were very good, but when i did a Hurricane in DG/DE, I was very put out when I compared to the MAP chips.  I then spent a long time mixing paint.   My recall of Xtracrylix Sky is a quite a bright colour.  Another one to check.  I have some AK Interactive, these  AK02010z.jpg and they were poor as well.   Someone did say they are a different colour when sprayed,  which strikes me as not being very helpful. 

 

I was about to buy some Hataka blue range on ebay but it sold, and no-more is available on there, so I can't comment.

 

Also,  need to get some more Tamiya,  I've not tackled the FAA colours, yet,  but I'll be looking at Sky, and others as well.    I'll post up any mixes that seem good to me. 

  

I have to say i was really put out by this,  in particular by Xtracrylix, which seem to be highly rated....and were not good matches. (I read the Dark earth needed a really good stir, I'd used a bit bent wire in cordless drill to make sure)  . only to be plunged into the realms of trying to mix and match. 

 

Colourcoats are looking more appealing all the time as I know they are matched known sources.....  I'm just not a fan of the smell and clean up of oil based paints. .... 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I agree.  I mentioned that they looked very washed out.   

I have very good colour vision. 

34424 is very close to ANA 610.   

34583 is slightly yellower than MAP Sky .

My FS deck is FS 595B, made in 1989.

 

I'll try some photos in direct sun, and see if that's any better.    The one above was mid afternoon,  outside in daylight but not direct sun.   It was done quickly, as had other things to do.   Apologies if this muddies the subject.    

 

AFAIK, Dupont 71-021 is the color on the P-40 bits shown by @LDSModeller

I believe ANA 610 is later.   @Dana Bell  maybe able to add more.

 

HTH

Hi Troy,

Thanks so much for all this effort. One of the reasons your post was so helpful is we have exactly the same FS books (595b 1989) and I have the MAP book as well so it gave me what I needed to make comparisons.

Cheers,

Gord

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51 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I can’t get Colourcoats either Gord and I live a lot closer.  Can’t get them from Uk, Netherlands won’t ship them here either, Germany & Denmark didn’t have them.  

 

I usually use Xtracrylics  and looked at Hataka as an alternative that I can source from Europe but they are lighter than Xtracrylics.  Neither range has Sky equivalent in their range either...  So I’m looking for a mix too...

Hi Phil,

Yeah makes things difficult when they are apparently the go to paints that we haven't seen LOL

Troy is using references I have so I think progress is being made!

Cheers,

Gord

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30 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I had read that Xtracrylix were very good, but when i did a Hurricane in DG/DE, I was very put out when I compared to the MAP chips.  I then spent a long time mixing paint.   My recall of Xtracrylix Sky is a quite a bright colour.  Another one to check.  I have some AK Interactive, these   and they were poor as well.   Someone did say they are a different colour when sprayed,  which strikes me as not being very helpful. 

I was about to buy some Hataka blue range on ebay but it sold, and no-more is available on there, so I can't comment.

Also,  need to get some more Tamiya,  I've not tackled the FAA colours, yet,  but I'll be looking at Sky, and others as well.    I'll post up any mixes that seem good to me. 

 Colourcoats are looking more appealing all the time as I know they are matched known sources.....  I'm just not a fan of the smell and clean up of oil based paints. .... 

 

 

Hi Troy,

I tried the Xtracrylix as well and really didn't like them. 

I have some AK's but am yet to try them.

I do like Gunze/Mr Hobby #71 Mid Stone, 72 Dark Earth and 73 Dark Green (in fact I think I saw them recommended on here) but I don't like their Greys or Sky. Model Air 307 gave a decent underside grey that mtched 72 and 73 quite well I thought

 

I can't spray the oil or lacquer based paints at all as I react quite badly to them. The last time I tried I had to cover myself in calamine lotion. The Horror! So Colourcoats are out for me anyway but would love to get a book of their paint chips.

When the first acrylics came out I was really doing a happy dance.  After all, it's alcohol, I can deal with that.

A friend of mine ordered a lot of Hatakas direct from Poland, I will see if he can make me some colour chips.

Thanks again Troy

Cheers,

Gord

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Just came across Dana Bell's response about Dupont and ANA paints as they pertain to Royal Navy Corsair:

 

I’m aware of two versions of VS-34900, the camouflage and markings drawings for British Corsairs.  The original drawing (which I’ve never seen) was dated April 1943; the first revision (“A” revision) released that October notes that the drawing was “Brought up to date.”  It appears the only differences involved switching from the birdcage canopy to the blown one.  I don’t believe there was a subsequent drawing of FAA camouflage, though I’m sure there was a Goodyear drawing of FAA markings for Glossy Sea Blue Corsair IVs.

 

As I’ve noted earlier, the drawings call out three camouflage colors: Dark Olive Drab duPont 1071-028, Sea Gray duPont 71-19324, and Sky duPont 71-021.  While everything I’ve seen says the FAA Corsairs were camouflaged with paints that matched the cited colors, I must admit that NONE of them were painted with duPont 71-series paints.  This doesn’t matter to modelers directly, but all duPont 71-series paints were lacquers – and all of the FAA-camouflaged Corsairs were painted with enamels.  (The use of enamels also meant that there was no change in colors between fabric and metal surfaces, an issue seen on most US Navy Corsair camouflages.)

 

As noted frequently on this site, in 1938/39 the British Purchasing Commission hired duPont to produce color standards matched to the RAF’s own chips; duPont did OK, but screwed up on several colors.  Most US manufacturing drawings and specs quoted the duPont numbers but added the words “or equivalent.”  This allowed aircraft manufacturers to purchase from a variety of paint producers, as long as the paints matched duPont’s chips.

 

The ANA agreements were a joint effort to limit the number of paints that aircraft manufacturers needed to stock.  The mid-1942 agreements chose the most commonly used color to become the standard, allowing that color to be substituted for an approved list of similar colors.  The agreements never required the substitution of a US paint for one of the British paints on the duPont charts, and it appears several of the British colors continued to be purchased and applied by US aircraft manufacturers until fairly late in the war.  The ANA color chips released in May 1943 were based on the selected ANA standards, and were reasonable matches.

 

Standardization was particularly important for the Corsair since major subassemblies were being built at subcontractors around the country.  Outer wing panels, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, and rudders and elevators needed to match the paints being applied by Vought and Brewster - and photos suggest there was a fairly high degree of consistency.  (Note that the demarcation lines needed to align too!)

The standard FAA colors in 1943/44 would have been Dark Slate Grey, Extra Dark Sea Grey, and Sky.

 

So, the Corsairs’ colors themselves:

 

Dark Slate Gray – Prior to the ANA agreements, Vought had applied this color (based on duPont 71-19323) to Chesapeakes.  By the time Corsairs were in production, the ANA agreements had allowed the substitution of Dark Olive Drab (duPont 1071-028) – here I suspect the “1071" prefix reflect the fact that the AAF lacquer was specially formulated to reduce the infra-red signature.  Vought was particularly good about confirming any revisions to color schemes or paints, so I do not believe old stocks of Dark Slate Grey were ever expended on Corsairs - and if they were, the outer wings and tails would not have matched the center wing panels or fuselages.

 

Extra Dark Sea Grey – Again, Vought had used this color (71-19324) on Chesapeakes.  In the ANA agreements EDSG was adopted as the standard and renamed Sea Gray.  If Vought had leftover stocks of this paint it would have made no difference, but there’s no evidence that it would have mattered, since both color names referred back to the same duPont number.

 

Sky – I’ve major problems with the origins of the US version of this color, but those issues don’t apply to Corsairs (so we don’t have to go there).  The Vought Chesapeake drawings call for Sky Type “S” Gray 71-021 or equivalent.  (This is the only color on any of the drawing to specify “or equivalent.”)  On the Corsair drawings the color is now Sky 71-021, which had been accepted as an ANA standard.  Note that 71-021 matched neither British Sky or Sky Grey, but at least was a pale green.

 

Anyhow, I hope that something here is helpful - I know there’s a lot more detail than necessary, but I hope the extra clarifies some of the continuing issues.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Edited by JackG
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Thanks so much for this Jack, it is fascinating stuff.

BTW I have spoken to a couple of people I know who do car body work and they both say that lacquers would work with virtually pigment. That stuff will dissolve just about anything. I asked about colour shift and they weren't too sure but agreed it "could make the colours warmer.

Cheers,

Gord

I have ordered a copy of "Time Capsule Fighter" . One of the things I am most looking forward to is that in removing surface layers of paint they found the green/grey camo on the tail. Hopefully they have some pictures/thoughts of the pale green underneath.

G

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Hi Jack,

Well I live near Hope (about 30 miles west in Chilliwack actually) so if the book doesn't add anything I can always write the museum staff or perhaps some intrepid modeller can make a Covid safe expidition and photo the underside of the tail. Or I will just stick with my best guess.

Otherwwise still collating.

Cheers, and thanks as usual,

Gord

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34 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

The 71-021 CIELAB coordinates provided to me by Nick Millman are most like FS36622 of the standards I gather you have. Quite a subtle colour.

Hi Jamie and thanks so much for this.

I went straight to my FS deck and looked it up, definitely some green in there but strikes me as basically as a warm and very light grey. Indeed a very subtle colour.

Great stuff and again my thanks,

Gord

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48 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

The 71-021 CIELAB coordinates provided to me by Nick Millman are most like FS36622 of the standards I gather you have. Quite a subtle colour.

 

10 minutes ago, Gordon Parker said:

Hi Jamie and thanks so much for this.

I went straight to my FS deck and looked it up, definitely some green in there but strikes me as basically as a warm and very light grey. Indeed a very subtle colour.

Great stuff and again my thanks,

Gord

indeed. Which would explain the "AVG P-40's have gray undersides'  argument.

 

And it's a dreadful match for Sky. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

indeed. Which would explain the "AVG P-40's have gray undersides'  argument.

And it's a dreadful match for Sky. 

 

 

 

Hi Troy,

Indeed, I think you make a point on both counts. I am glad you have chimed in on this as I must admit my colour vision isn't as acute as it was since having to deal with my diabetes which has included the development of rosacea and that had caused some serious vision problems. All of  that is improving since I completely changed my dietary habits and get more exercise but still my eyesight is not what it was. I guess being 66 doesn't help in that  department either 😜

BTW I do like the tag lines at the end of your posts!

Cheers,

Gord 

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13 hours ago, Gordon Parker said:

Hi Jamie and thanks so much for this.

I went straight to my FS deck and looked it up, definitely some green in there but strikes me as basically as a warm and very light grey. Indeed a very subtle colour.

Great stuff and again my thanks,

Gord

 

Definitely greenish though, but towards yellow-green rather than blue-green.

 

I perceive that the words "warm light grey" conjures up a mental image somewhat 'round the corner' and distinctly yellow-grey if not brownish/khaki leaning. 71-021 definitely is not that.

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10 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Definitely greenish though, but towards yellow-green rather than blue-green.

 

I perceive that the words "warm light grey" conjures up a mental image somewhat 'round the corner' and distinctly yellow-grey if not brownish/khaki leaning. 71-021 definitely is not that.

I can’t even visualise this colour.  I know it’s not accurate but is there are RGB value so I can put it on my computer screen and compare it to FAA Sky?

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Thanks Jamie for that trio comparison.   Was wondering how this fits in with period colour photos from 1943.  The closest software simulation I have is Kodarchrome 25, the number represents film speed.  According to Wiki,  the 35mm still film version was made available to the public in 1936, but only a film speed of 10 is mentioned for 16mm movie film.  Anyhow, it seems this particular Kodak film at 25 speed did reduce a bit the reds and yellows, or was it an increase in blue?

 

kodachrome-25-sim.jpg

 

Back on page 3 where the colour photos were posted, I think that first example was either digitally altered or was scanned from a book.   The original might be found here as the source is being quoted as the 'Naval Slide Collection at the national Archive':

https://historylink101.com/ww2_navy/org/planes/BritishPlanes/index.html

 

regards,

Jack

 

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10 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

I can’t even visualise this colour.  I know it’s not accurate but is there are RGB value so I can put it on my computer screen and compare it to FAA Sky?

My crappy lenovo is no help at all for that, I need numbers to work with or I am completely lost.

10 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Definitely greenish though, but towards yellow-green rather than blue-green.

 

I perceive that the words "warm light grey" conjures up a mental image somewhat 'round the corner' and distinctly yellow-grey if not brownish/khaki leaning. 71-021 definitely is not that.

Warm is a term left over from my photo retouching days (when we still used gouaches for gorb's sake!) Warm colours have a slightly red-yellow  shift and cool colours have a blue-green shift, but I suspect you know that.

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9 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

 

 

415f32c3-a809-40bb-aed0-a3a21ba96092.png

 

 

Hi Jamie

You don't by any chance produce a colour chip book for FAA colours do you? Something say that could be shipped to Canada? I think that would be something worth carrying in my store.

On this crap computer (cursed lenovo laptop) those all look basically grey to me.

Cheers,

Gord

Cheers,

Gord

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3 hours ago, JackG said:

Thanks Jamie for that trio comparison.   Was wondering how this fits in with period colour photos from 1943.  The closest software simulation I have is Kodarchrome 25, the number represents film speed.  According to Wiki,  the 35mm still film version was made available to the public in 1936, but only a film speed of 10 is mentioned for 16mm movie film.  Anyhow, it seems this particular Kodak film at 25 speed did reduce a bit the reds and yellows, or was it an increase in blue?

 

Hi Jack,

as I recall from my retouching days Kodachrome definitely had a warm shift (increased intensity for reds and yellows) . So we had to use "warm versions of any colours for retouching. Fuji for instance required "cool" colours, can't remember what we did for AGFA

Cheers,

Gord

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2 hours ago, Gordon Parker said:

Hi Jack,

as I recall from my retouching days Kodachrome definitely had a warm shift (increased intensity for reds and yellows) . So we had to use "warm versions of any colours for retouching. Fuji for instance required "cool" colours, can't remember what we did for AGFA

Cheers,

Gord

Think Agfa had a red / yellow tinge too...

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Just a quick update:

Ordered Airscale instrument faces and bezels so l can start on an FAA ip and have started to draw the intakes and try to turn them into something I can work with. 

If I can figure out how to add images (honestly I have no desire to use a cloud with this already overtaxed POS lenovo). Suggestions?

Not sure how I will tackle the rest of the cockpit tub. I feel very reluctant to cut that beautiful Tamiya kit apart.

 

I got a brief message from Roy at BarracudaCals.com:

Regarding the 1/72nd Spitfire set; it is being updated with an new seat and floor! I can fianlly stop hoarding my last few sets! (I had upwards of 20 at one time). 

No word regarding FAA conversion sets yet but I did write him back outlining what what we have discussed here: Cockpit details, Instrument panel, wingtips and side scoops/ventral exhaust (?). 

Anything I missed?

Gord

PS my partner thinks I need to get off the logging road of the information highway and figure out how to use "One Drive" for photo sharing on here. I made with my patented Mexican Sad Eye Painting face (check it out, it was really a thing) and Jeany caved and said she will do the photos for me. 

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Hi Gordon,

 

I've been using this free host for photos, but you should still keep your images saved on the hard drive for future reference, just in case the site goes under or becomes a paid site.  The login feature I've never used,    but probably allows arranging and grouping photos into albums or such:

https://postimages.org/

 

I've plans to draw up the side scoops, vent, and inter cooler flap in vector format and get them custom PE.  I'd offer you some in 1/32, but you might finish your build before the year is done?

 

regards,

Jack

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