FAA F4u-1a Corsair, questions, questions ,questions ...

[Gordon Parker]

9 minutes ago, Dana Bell said:

Hi Gord,

 

The Archives has a ton of paper debating the Corsair's tires, but all of it covers to tires' composition (nylon, rayon, etc) and none of it mentioned the tread.  I'm sure that somewhere the Navy had some decision-making time on the tread for all it's fighters, but I'm afraid I've never found it.

 

Uniforms are outside of my expertise - others will know far more than I can guess at.

 

The easiest color equivilent is Sea Gray, which is 36118 in FS595a.  (Note that there was a color change in 595b.)  Dark OD is not well matched by any 595 color, though 34087 (again from 595a) is commonly listed.  Documentation shows that the color of OD varied greatly between and within wartime manufacturers.  Sky is 34424, but questions remain (at least in my view) about the nature of Sky from US producers.

 

The cowl flaps remained connect from the factory for quite some time - battening them down was initially a field modification.  There were also two replacement panels for the cowl flaps; the first had a tendency to rip off in flight, which is why a second version was created.  Like the battened flaps, the replacement panels were initially issued as field mods.

 

BTW, I've had so many questions about the changes in cockpit configurations that I'm now working on a self-published monograph on the subject.  I hope to go to press with the first Rivet Counters' Guide in about a month...

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

Dana

Hi and thanks again Dana,

This has all been an enormous help to me and please put me down for a copy of your monograph. In fact is it possible to buy your two Corsair books directly from you (I have most, if not all of your earlier books on US colours)?

All the best,

Gord

[JackG]

Unfortunately I don't have any further progress to report on my 72nd build.  Some PE I had designed to be custom etched in Scotland brought on delays, and summers always cut into my bench time.

 

Back to roundels, you will notice for the upper wing I went with (I think standard 59 inch diameter for the Corsair). and @Seahawk  mentions these would have white centers of 9 inch diameter.  He provided the background info in that link I had in my second post.  Basically the small roundels for the Far East were set by the RAF in September 1943.  The FAA adopted this as well (but without the light blue centers), with the other deviation being the preference of large upper wing roundels.

 

regards,

Jack

[Gordon Parker]

22 minutes ago, nicholas mayhew said:

i still cannot believe Barracuda- or anyone else - has not done either a resin or (the way things are moving) a 3D printed parts conversion for the Tamiya kit in 1/32

 

so frustrating to have scratchbuild wing tips and scoops on a £100 kit and potentially balls it up

 

on pretty much every conversion i have seen the home made scoops look pretty meh

Hi Nicholas,

Good idea to try and get Barracuda on this, and they often welcome other contributors for conversion or update masters. I guess Roy can't do it all. I will contact Shelly and let her know what you think. With the fires in Califirnia and the continiuing Covid problems, this hasn't been the most fun year for the good folks at Barracuda.

Cheers,

Gord

[Gordon Parker]

7 minutes ago, JackG said:

Unfortunately I don't have any further progress to report on my 72nd build.  Some PE I had designed to be custom etched in Scotland brought on delays, and summers always cut into my bench time.

 

Back to roundels, you will notice for the upper wing I went with (I think standard 59 inch diameter for the Corsair). and @Seahawk  mentions these would have white centers of 9 inch diameter.  He provided the background info in that link I had in my second post.  Basically the small roundels for the Far East were set by the RAF in September 1943.  The FAA adopted this as well (but without the light blue centers), with the other deviation being the preference of large upper wing roundels.

 

regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Your second post is what started me chasing after more roundel info., and I copied Seahawks info, thanks for the heads up.

I thought the photo of the overpainted roundels included in Sebastian Lachowicz superb build on here looked like an appealing add and logical inference for my Corsair build.

Cheers,

Gord.

 

[JackG]

From what can be learned through the net, P54 is from 757 OTU based in Ceylon.    Established in October '43, that could explain the knackered look of the Corsair.  The carrier is supposedly identified as HMS Unicorn, tasked for supply and repair of the East Indies Fleet and subsequently the BPF.   So combining the two I think the image is illustrating deck training?  My conclusion would be a training unit may not exactly portray the markings as seen on front line units, but welcome more info and opinions ...

 

regards,

Jack

[dogsbody]

I've gone through the IWM Corsair photos and all I can find with good views of the wheels is this and it ain't from the Pacific.

 

Chance-Vought Corsair fighters carrying extra fuel tanks are ranged on the deck of HMS VICTORIOUS ready for the raid on German shipping in Norwegian waters

 

 

 

A blown-up view shows diamond tread on the starboard wheel with no tread on the port wheel.

 

 

 

 

Maybe it just depends on what was in stock.

 

 

 

Chris

[Gordon Parker]

8 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

 

A blown-up view shows diamond tread on the starboard wheel with no tread on the port wheel.

Maybe it just depends on what was in stock.

 

 

 

Chris

Thanks Chris, Much appreciated and this is very helpful, Mostly.

Gord

[noelh]

 

 

 

Both these videos have useful shots of various FAA Corsairs. Indeed sometimes the pilot very kindly tips the aeroplane on it's nose so you can see the upper surface. 😂

There's also a couple of views of the pilots overalls. But there's better pictures here in this video, 3:20 in. 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by noelh

[72modeler]

@noelh,

 

Thanks for posting these! Those little CVE's sure pitched and rolled while steaming at speed; the pilots who operated off of them must have had big brass ones!

Mike

[Gordon Parker]

Thanks Noel, useful indeed and quite fun as well.

Cheers

Gord

[noelh]

15 minutes ago, Gordon Parker said:

Thanks Noel, useful indeed and quite fun as well.

Cheers

Gord

No problem, I'm a Corsair nut and happened to come across them yesterday while browsing for Corsair videos. When I saw this thread, I knew it would be useful. 

 

@72modeler@.       You're right about those CVEs. Great comments from the veterans too. 

 

[Gordon Parker]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:04 AM, Dana Bell said:

The easiest color equivilent is Sea Gray, which is 36118 in FS595a.  (Note that there was a color change in 595b.)  Dark OD is not well matched by any 595 color, though 34087 (again from 595a) is commonly listed.  Documentation shows that the color of OD varied greatly between and within wartime manufacturers.  Sky is 34424, but questions remain (at least in my view) about the nature of Sky from US producers.

Dana

Hi Dana, 

Vallejo Model Air makes all the FS paints you cited, and keeping in mind your caveats, I will make colour chips of these compared to the Vallejo FAA colours and look to create contrast matches similar to the photos for the overpainted sections of the roundels.

I do realise that there are always arguments about which brand of paint is most accurate and I am subject to that  myself, at least the Vallejos spray very well and withing their range the colour balance looks good. Besides after weathering, fading, buggering the paint for a South Pacific carrier bird, I think the colour paleete would be quite wide.

Again, I appreciate all the help,

Cheers,

Gord

[Gordon Parker]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:19 AM, JackG said:

Unfortunately I don't have any further progress to report on my 72nd build.  Some PE I had designed to be custom etched in Scotland brought on delays, and summers always cut into my bench time.

Hi Jack,,

I was looking at your 72nd build and I noticed that you have the handhold on the right side of the fuselage filled. Is that a peculiarity of FAA a/c, something to do with the added venting or an error by Tamiya? I can't see Vought altering production for such a small detail, and being pathologically slothful I would hate to have to fill, sand, rescribe and repeat until perfect. Of course I will for the sake of accuracy, but ...

Cheers,

Gord

 

[Gordon Parker]

On 9/7/2021 at 12:42 AM, Grey Beema said:

Lastly, good luck with your model, I’ll be following as I have a Corsair in the stash (1/48) to build as this aircraft.  I have previously built JT537/P136 another of Don Sheppard’s Corsairs and I am currently building one of Bill Atkinson’s lesser known Hellcats (JW867/W116).

 

Hello again Gary,

I was looking at your Hellcat builds and was really impressed. I was surprised by how brightly the airframe stencils stood. The the colour photo really emphasizes how stark the white looked against the camo.

BTW on my build list is Bill Atkinson's later Hellcat  JW722/119 in the all blue scheme. There is quite a good interview and article on his aircraft in Random Thoughts (RT IPMS Canada) Vol 25, number 4/5 I can scan if interested.

Cheers,

Gord

[Grey Beema]

2 hours ago, Gordon Parker said:

Hello again Gary,

I was looking at your Hellcat builds and was really impressed. I was surprised by how brightly the airframe stencils stood. The the colour photo really emphasizes how stark the white looked against the camo.

BTW on my build list is Bill Atkinson's later Hellcat  JW722/119 in the all blue scheme. There is quite a good interview and article on his aircraft in Random Thoughts (RT IPMS Canada) Vol 25, number 4/5 I can scan if interested.

Cheers,

Gord

 

 

It’s an old model now, and there are mistakes in the aircraft so I will build it again once I’ve built the completed the collection correcting the mistakes..

 

JX772/X119 1844 NAS flown by a distant cousin who was handy in a Hellcat..

 

 

 

[JackG]

Hello Gord, if you mean the foothold on the flap of the right wing, yes it was filled in as pointed out on Britmodeller forums.  Don't recall mention why FAA Corsairs are without these (but photos do support that the cutout was not present).  Whether these were patched over or specially built this way,  I could not say.  

 

Same thing with the bomb window on the underside of the fuselage, this was fared over if present, but with  F4u-1a production this was omitted at the factory.

 

Am not sure what to suggest about the upper cowl flaps.   Examples can be found with both styles present in the same photo.   It seems the only definite is that by the time the BPF roundel was in use (the one with white bars on either side of the roundel), the upper flaps are eliminated.  Since we don't have a photo of Sheppard's bird in January 1945 (I think that's what we both are aiming for?), then there is a good possibility the flaps were replaced with one of those field kits Dana Bell mentioned?

     

You are lucky that the Tamiya 1/32 kit offers a choice with this particular detail.   In 1/72 boxings, the plastic is all identical for the cowl flaps, including their birdcage version.

 

regards,

Jack

[Dana Bell]

I hope you'll all bear with me as I get a grip...

 

For hand holds on the right side of the Corsair fuselage, every aircraft had a push-in, horizontal hand hold just forward of the windscreen.  A diagonal handhold was later added halfway down the fuselage directly below the horizontal hand hold; this second grip was not seen on Corsair Is, IIs, or IIIs, but was introduced on Corsair IV KD762.  (Another hand hold was added to the left side of the fuselage, just forward of the windscreen, late in Goodyear production, but I can't find if or when that turned up on Corsair IVs.)

 

The step in the right inboard flap was originally a kick step (later converted to an open step after the war).  Like the second hand hold, the flap step was not seen on Corsair Is, IIs, or IIIs - it was introduced on Corsair IV KD868.

 

It's unclear if Brewster ever replaced the bombing window with an aluminum-skinned hatch.  Vought made the change on Corsair II JT425, while Goodyear began the change before the first Corsair IV was built.  While I've read secondary sources talking about field unit painting over or plating over the window, I've never found any documentation to support this.  (That doesn't mean ir didn't happen, but no one explained what they were doing to BuAer.

 

The cowl flaps switched from hydraulic operation to mechanical very early in production, so no hydraulic cowl flaps were ever seen on FAA Corsairs.  Other fluid leaks and forward visibility continued to be a problem, so field units were directed to disconnect and batten down the top three flaps.  A change order directed field units to remove the top three flaps and replace them with a sheet of 064 gauge 24ST Alclad sheet.  As this "dead cowl flap" tended to tear off in flight, a second change order switched to a more robust replacement made of reinforced 051 gauge 24SO Alclad.  The factory began delivering British aircraft with dead cowl flaps (though it's unclear which version) on JT425 (Vought) and all Corsair IIIs and IVs.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

[Gordon Parker]

7 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

 

 

It’s an old model now, and there are mistakes in the aircraft so I will build it again once I’ve built the completed the collection correcting the mistakes..

 

JX772/X119 1844 NAS flown by a distant cousin who was handy in a Hellcat..

 

 

 

Well, Gary, from this angle it looks great and it IS another bird done. I hope you will post your re-start when you begin and maybe poin  t out the errors on this one, just so I can keep an eye  on my future build.

Cheers,

Gord
Gord

[Gordon Parker]

3 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

I hope you'll all bear with me as I get a grip...

 

Well this is a step in the right direction ...

Thanks again Dana!

Gord

 

 

 

 

[Gordon Parker]

7 hours ago, JackG said:

You are lucky that the Tamiya 1/32 kit offers a choice with this particular detail.   In 1/72 boxings, the plastic is all identical for the cowl flaps, including their birdcage version.

Thanks again Jack,

This si getting to be a sizable file and I hope to start very soon although admittedly a 417 Spt V from the new Airfix kit  is calling to me as well. Squirrell!

Cheers,

Gord

 

[Grey Beema]

I would like to build a model of JT410 myself at some point (it’s in the stash) and I have a Wildcat V to build (which I think was an FM-1 build and was also painted equivalent colours).  I am considering moving from Xtracrylics to Colourcoats and I would like to check some paint equivalents.

 

I think these two are self evident but I’m not sure about the third.

 

Sky 71-021 - Colourcoats ACRN36 - US equivalent Sky 71-021

Dark Olive Drab 1071-028. -  Colourcoats ACRN35 - Olive Drab BS381C-298

Sea Gray 71-19324 - ?

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Could you help me please?

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

12 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I would like to build a model of JT410 myself at some point (it’s in the stash) and I have a Wildcat V to build (which I think was an FM-1 build and was also painted equivalent colours).  I am considering moving from Xtracrylics to Colourcoats and I would like to check some paint equivalents.

 

I think these two are self evident but I’m not sure about the third.

 

Sky 71-021 - Colourcoats ACRN36 - US equivalent Sky 71-021

Dark Olive Drab 1071-028. -  Colourcoats ACRN35 - Olive Drab BS381C-298

Sea Gray 71-19324 - ?

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Could you help me please?

 

 

 

Hi, going by @Dana Bell's FS36118 callout above, I'd suggest:

 

Colourcoats ACUS14 - Gunship Gray (FS26118)

 

Incidently, for the olive drab this should have been similar (I think - please correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here Dana) to ANA613 Olive Drab although it's noted that this particular colour was all over the place in manufacture, however Colourcoats ACUS12 - USAAF Olive Drab (ANA613) matches the intended shade (swatch posted next to the Gray above). In that regard, pretty much any olive drab could probably be argued to be plausible.

 

The 71-021 Sky Type S Gray is correct

[Gordon Parker]

6 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Incidently, for the olive drab this should have been similar (I think - please correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here Dana) to ANA613 Olive Drab although it's noted that this particular colour was all over the place in manufacture, however Colourcoats ACUS12 - USAAF Olive Drab (ANA613) matches the intended shade (swatch posted next to the Gray above). In that regard, pretty much any olive drab could probably be argued to be plausible.

The 71-021 Sky Type S Gray is correct

 

Hi Jamie,

are colourcoats acrylic or enamel. We don't see them this side of the big ditch.. I have really been enjoying the Valejo Model Airs and not only because I own a hobby store and get them wholesale! 😜

 

Cheers,

Gord

 

[JackG]

It's a good thing this thread was started as a number of details are being cleared up thanks to Dana Bell, and it never hurts to brush up on the paint colours, so thanks as well to Jamie.

 

Maybe it was providence that stalled my 72nd build.  It will require a bit more than taking a scriber to create the three cowl flaps on top, as there is also the curved edge of the fuselage front end to rebuild.   I believe it was stated there should be 3 flaps atop the cowl, so is that one wide section with a narrow section on either side as illustrated here:

 

From this site found these photos interesting:

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2013/09/vought-xf4u-1-corsair.html

 

The upper photo is of the corrected panel line running the circumference of the fuselage - but I find in 72nd scale Tamiya has this line even further forward.  Is this incorrect, or was there another amendment during production?  From a Hyperscale review, the 1/32 model also seems much further forward:

 

 

It seems this is characteristic of the Corsair IV, as built by Goodyear.  Compare to KD431 at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, it looks like Tamiya copied this?

 

--------------------------------

--------------------------------

 

For the window underneath, Tamiya does provide this as a clear part including the surrounding framework.  

 

There is a series of photos showing a pranged Corsair piloted by Sheppard in May 1944:

 

Another pranged Corsair, framework for the window looks to be present, but can't tell is it just glare and dirt covered, painted over, or plexiglass replaced with sheet metal from inside?

 

 

Same questions with this one, caption had it September 1944:

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Chuck1945]

Regarding the panel line, it looks in the same position to me, just aft of the cowl. The wings however are further aft on production Corsairs as well as the prototype in the first picture