Amusing Hobby, Valley of Tears Centurion Shot Kal, mantlet..

[Jasper dog]

Does anyone know if the DEF models mantlet dust cover, designed for the AFV Club kit, will fit the Amusing Hobby offering...?

I've heard the road wheels could do with replacing but if being honest I can probably live with them as they are.

I'm not suggesting that John @Bullbasket has eventually won me over to trying IDF armour but....

Whilst on the subject of the Shot Kal, any suggestions on paint/colour? (The kits colouring in page doesn't appear to give any suggestions ).

 

Cheers

Darryl

[Ade H]

I'd love to help but I actually have the same kit and the very same questions, so I'll follow along, Darryl.

[Kingsman]

Likewise.  I have that kit and the DEF mantlet but haven't tried to cobble them together.  I thought the AFV Club flexi vinyl offering was probably a non-starter.  Don't forget that you need the version with the ranging MG.

 

Also, FYI, the Amusing wheels are wrong insofar as they don't have the reinforcing rings inside the rims.  Impossible to mould on one-piece hard plastic wheels, which is why AFV Club and others include the wheel rims as part of vinyl tyres.  Although I noticed that the new AFV Club FV4005 kit says it has new one-piece wheels: not seen them.  The resin wheels by Panzer Art, MR Modellbau, Sovereign 2000 and Brach all include the rings.  Panzer Art are probably best value if you can find them.  Sovereign are a good second for value and they do both new and distressed versions.  The Legend wheels are oddly worse than any of the kit offerings.

 

I'm very interested to see how their gun barrel builds up, with its unusual construction.  I have an RB M68 barrel on standby "just in case" as it has a separate fume extractor unlike, say, the Barrel Depot offering.  While the M68 and L7 gun tubes were essentially identical the fume extractor cans were different.

 

As for colour, there have been many discussions on this subject around the base colour and lighting conditions.  There are a couple of recent-ish threads in this very forum.  I did ask for out-of-the-bottle recommendations for the 3 eras of Sand/Sinai Grey but didn't get an answer.  I'm not a fan of self-mixing because of the lack of consistent accurate repeatability, which is counter-intuitive to self-mixing for better accuracy compared to computer-controlled manufactured products.  And I'm not sure I want to be worried about whether my subject is placed in a gloomy day on the Golan or a sunny day in the Negev. 

[Jasper dog]

3 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Likewise.  I have that kit and the DEF mantlet but haven't tried to cobble them together.  I thought the AFV Club flexi vinyl offering was probably a non-starter.  Don't forget that you need the version with the ranging MG.

 

Also, FYI, the Amusing wheels are wrong insofar as they don't have the reinforcing rings inside the rims.  Impossible to mould on one-piece hard plastic wheels, which is why AFV Club and others include the wheel rims as part of vinyl tyres.  Although I noticed that the new AFV Club FV4005 kit says it has new one-piece wheels: not seen them.  The resin wheels by Panzer Art, MR Modellbau, Sovereign 2000 and Brach all include the rings.  Panzer Art are probably best value if you can find them.  Sovereign are a good second for value and they do both new and distressed versions.  The Legend wheels are oddly worse than any of the kit offerings.

 

I'm very interested to see how their gun barrel builds up, with its unusual construction.  I have an RB M68 barrel on standby "just in case" as it has a separate fume extractor unlike, say, the Barrel Depot offering.  While the M68 and L7 gun tubes were essentially identical the fume extractor cans were different.

 

As for colour, there have been many discussions on this subject around the base colour and lighting conditions.  There are a couple of recent-ish threads in this very forum.  I did ask for out-of-the-bottle recommendations for the 3 eras of Sand/Sinai Grey but didn't get an answer.  I'm not a fan of self-mixing because of the lack of consistent accurate repeatability, which is counter-intuitive to self-mixing for better accuracy compared to computer-controlled manufactured products.  And I'm not sure I want to be worried about whether my subject is placed in a gloomy day on the Golan or a sunny day in the Negev. 

Looking at the kit and the DEF cover, they might but without having it to try...Its a £10 punt otherwise!

 

The wheels......, I'm not overly invested in the subject so I can live without the rings but the cover, imo at least, is more obvious. 

 

The barrel I'll make up otb and see how it looks.

 

As for the colour I'm entirely with you, having a consistent colour out of the bottle,  that I can play with if required, is really handy.

To be honest the whole total 100% accuracy thing with paint just isn't my bag. I've been around painted "stuff" in  my time to know it doesn't take long for paint to fade and degrade. So two items painted to the same colour code can fairly soon look slightly different and so on. Even before they leave the paint shop they can look different if it's down to manual mixing of the paints on site.

 

Not knowing a jot about IDF stuff I've no real idea and the instructions don't even give a clue as to where to start!

 

Again, the "experts" on the subject might wince, but as mentioned before if it looks like an IDF Centurion.....

 

If I take a punt on the DEF cover I'll let you know.....

 

Thanks for your in depth response, as usual, really appreciated. 

 

Darryl 

[Bullbasket]

12 hours ago, Jasper dog said:

I'm not suggesting that John @Bullbasket has eventually won me over to trying IDF armour but....

Shalom and mazel tohv my son, and welcome to real modelling. (I blame two of my great grandfathers for that).

Actually, this is one vehicle as used by the IDF that I haven't tackled yet. I've got a stalled build of a Korean War Mk.lll, but that's the nearest I've got to it. Maybe if I get to Telford this year, I can pick one up. I've got a couple of bottles of Sinai Grey form two different makers, but they are completely different to each other. I'll have a look later on. In the meantime, good luck with the build and I'll be following along, taking notes.

 

John.

[Ade H]

I agree with you all about colour.

 

I have many times gone down the rabbit hole of research, sweating, fretting, and not getting any painting done! I had to shake off that habit a little bit. Sometimes, buying the "100% right" colour will mean extra cost (different thinner, etc.) and extra time/effort expended on learning how to use it well, when I already have a paint which I like, trust, and get great results with (having first been around the block with several paint types).

 

John, you might know this. I wondered whether the Sho'ts had the same paint as the Tirans or an earlier colour. I have a Tiran 4 as well, so it would be good to know whether they should look the same or different. Also, do you have any recommendations for a useful reference book for either of these tanks?

 

Regarding the wheel ribs, my initial solution will be to make my own if possible. With thin enough plastic card, I could use my cutting machine to churn out a bunch of identical pieces.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Ade H
added question

[Kingsman]

For those interested, here is some wheel profile info.  You can see from the section photo that the ribs are actually very pronounced by the final type.  This kit would have the less pronounced outermost rib.

 

[Ade H]

Excellent info, Peter. Thank you. They are certainly makeable without needing to spend on aftermarket.

[Jasper dog]

6 hours ago, Ade H said:

Excellent info, Peter. Thank you. They are certainly makeable without needing to spend on aftermarket.

No......you won't shame me into doing the wheels.

 

Good luck 

 

22 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Shalom and mazel tohv my son, and welcome to real modelling. (I blame two of my great grandfathers for that).

Actually, this is one vehicle as used by the IDF that I haven't tackled yet. I've got a stalled build of a Korean War Mk.lll, but that's the nearest I've got to it. Maybe if I get to Telford this year, I can pick one up. I've got a couple of bottles of Sinai Grey form two different makers, but they are completely different to each other. I'll have a look later on. In the meantime, good luck with the build and I'll be following along, taking notes.

 

John.

I picked the kit up on a whim after seeing a good deal and of course someone blathering on about IDF stuff over the years didn't help!

Ammo/mig does a set with Sand Grey and Sinai Grey, I assume one of those is in the right ball park?

 

Even comes with a little chap to sit in the spinning thing on top!

 

If all goes to plan probably make a start end of the month.

 

Cheers

 

7 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

For those interested, here is some wheel profile info.  You can see from the section photo that the ribs are actually very pronounced by the final type.  This kit would have the less pronounced outermost rib.

 

 

Thanks for posting the wheel info!

 

DEF mantlet has been orderd..... will have to try it and see!

 

[ivan-o]

😂 you know you will end up doing the wheels! There will be that little itch that says go on do them😂

[Ade H]

3 hours ago, Jasper dog said:

No......you won't shame me into doing the wheels.

Just a few strips of plastic... 😉

[Jasper dog]

Right.....

DEF mantlet has landed, haven't unwrapped the Amusing Hobby sprues but.....could require a little bit of chopping around to fit.

 

However being a clumsy so and so something else might have "accidentally" fallen into a shopping cart. (Clever trick as they are different shops but hey-ho).

 

The AFV club provides what appears to be a flexi glove type mantlet cover ......

 

My thinking being use the DEF cover on the AFV club kit and the flexi cover on the Amusing Hobby...

 

A quicky for those in the know.....Sand Grey rather than Sinai Grey? @Bullbasket, @Das Abteilung

 

Cheers

Darryl 

[Ade H]

18 minutes ago, Jasper dog said:

Sand Grey rather than Sinai Grey?

Probably so Possibly, Darryl. I think... I mean this gets so complicated and I haven't had a chance to find out more since you started this very useful discussion. But my understanding is that the Sinai Greys postdate these tanks.

 

The other guys will know more, hopefully.

 

In many cases, I feel happy to just pick a paint by name and swatches, and if it looks close to what I expected, I'm good. It's going to get altered anyway. At least with the modern colour, there are so many variations in photos that we can readily justify our choice. I had the AK (un)Real Colors swatches saved from its website, thinking that they may be useful, but they could very well be inaccurate. Tellingly, AK has renamed them since then.

 

Addendum:

This thread has some info from Das Abteilung. Paints a different picture to what we might have expected. See also this chart.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Ade H
more info

[Jasper dog]

27 minutes ago, Ade H said:

Probably so Possibly, Darryl. I think... I mean this gets so complicated and I haven't had a chance to find out more since you started this very useful discussion. But my understanding is that the Sinai Greys postdate these tanks.

 

The other guys will know more, hopefully.

 

In many cases, I feel happy to just pick a paint by name and swatches, and if it looks close to what I expected, I'm good. It's going to get altered anyway. At least with the modern colour, there are so many variations in photos that we can readily justify our choice. I had the AK (un)Real Colors swatches saved from its website, thinking that they may be useful, but they could very well be inaccurate. Tellingly, AK has renamed them since then.

 

Addendum:

This thread has some info from Das Abteilung. Paints a different picture to what we might have expected. See also this chart.

Can't argue there!

As long as I've a colour to start with, Sand Grey,  cos I'll fiddle and lighten it as I see fit!  I'm not one for being 100% on these things! 

 

Cheers

Darryl 

[dov]

The colors from Mr.Color  there is at 500+ range, there are different tones. This colors seem to me very accurate.

Golan

Sinai

early / late

Seen it in real on tanks, and have also worked with some shades. 

Maybe it helps.

Happy modelling 

[Ade H]

26 minutes ago, dov said:

Maybe it helps.

Not really, because I'm not sure what you're on about. There is nothing with those names in the Mr. Hobby PDF catalogue.

And I can't speak for Darryl, but I don't use Mr. Hobby colours on AFVs because they don't suit my methods and I prefer purely water-based options.

[dov]

There is a color set on IDF color. 529, 530 and 528 I think. Check it out!

Happy modelling 

[Mike Mcellaney]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:54 PM, Jasper dog said:

Does anyone know if the DEF models mantlet dust cover, designed for the AFV Club kit, will fit the Amusing Hobby offering...?

I've heard the road wheels could do with replacing but if being honest I can probably live with them as they are.

I'm not suggesting that John @Bullbasket has eventually won me over to trying IDF armour but....

Whilst on the subject of the Shot Kal, any suggestions on paint/colour? (The kits colouring in page doesn't appear to give any suggestions ).

 

Cheers

Darryl

Hi Darryl just to let you know yes it will fit with a bit of work, here is one I fitted as a test onto a Amusing Hobby turret to see if it would fit

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with Das Abteilung the Panzer Art replacment wheels are the best, but remember these are sized for the AFV kit and there is a slight size difference between the AFV wheels and the Amusing Hobby ones not much the AFV wheels are 22mm in diameter and the Amusing Hobby wheels are 23.5mm in diameter

 

If you are looking for Panzer Art wheel check our Wildcat Models web site I bought 5 sets from there 2 weeks ago and he was still showing 10 sets in stock at £13.80 per set 

 

[Jasper dog]

Thanks Mike @Mike Mcellaney, good to know it fits!

I'm always reluctant to open the sprue bags until I've committed myself to the build.

 

Thanks for the info on the wheels too!

 

Cheers 

Darryl 

[Kingsman]

If you're in the UK, Wildcats are turning into a useful supplier of brands that have been harder to find in the UK and sourced from across the Channel in earlier times.  He has an eBay shop too.  Prices may be higher than we've been used to but everything is free shipping in the UK.  Stock does sometimes vary between eBay and web stores.

 

Centurion wheels were 31.6" diameter when new.  803mm.  A fraction under 23mm in 1/35.

http://tanks.mod16.org/pdf/Centurion mk 10 datasheet and drawings.pdf

[Bozothenutter]

On 9/12/2021 at 12:40 PM, Mike Mcellaney said:

Hi Darryl just to let you know yes it will fit with a bit of work, here is one I fitted as a test onto a Amusing Hobby turret to see if it would fit

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with Das Abteilung the Panzer Art replacment wheels are the best, but remember these are sized for the AFV kit and there is a slight size difference between the AFV wheels and the Amusing Hobby ones not much the AFV wheels are 22mm in diameter and the Amusing Hobby wheels are 23.5mm in diameter

 

If you are looking for Panzer Art wheel check our Wildcat Models web site I bought 5 sets from there 2 weeks ago and he was still showing 10 sets in stock at £13.80 per set 

 

How'd you get that fit!?

In the process of adapting mine, and have a good 1.5mm of air on either side! 

I left the riveted strip on the turret, as cutting back further would only enlarge the hole...

[Jasper dog]

56 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

How'd you get that fit!?

In the process of adapting mine, and have a good 1.5mm of air on either side! 

I left the riveted strip on the turret, as cutting back further would only enlarge the hole...

Yeah its fitted and went ok. Like you I reckoned that removing the mounting strip would have just left a bigger hole, the moulded on strip is easily removed with a file when required. 

 

 

Apparently you can remove the moulded on strip and fit the DEF part further back, I was a little concerned about making a real hash of it if I removed too much. However @simmerit has made a great job of his doing it that way. 

Not sure I can remove mine now to reset, I flooded the joints with superglue to fill

the gaps once fitted...

 

Good luck

Darryl 

[Bozothenutter]

2 hours ago, Jasper dog said:

Yeah its fitted and went ok. Like you I reckoned that removing the mounting strip would have just left a bigger hole, the moulded on strip is easily removed with a file when required. 

 

 

Apparently you can remove the moulded on strip and fit the DEF part further back, I was a little concerned about making a real hash of it if I removed too much. However @simmerit has made a great job of his doing it that way. 

Not sure I can remove mine now to reset, I flooded the joints with superglue to fill

the gaps once fitted...

 

Good luck

Darryl 

Nerdy question:

Did you file/cut at a right angle to the wall, or straight across the front?

@simmerit

[simmerit]

4 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

Nerdy question:

Did you file/cut at a right angle to the wall, or straight across the front?

@simmerit

 

Its fair to say that I approached mine with the same trepidation as @Jasper dog did with his and the answer to your question is a bit of both!  Here's a picture which you can zoom in on without losing any of the detail.

 

 

I decided to leave the bottom of the turret in place (as you can see), rather than cut it out, which is what Jasper did on his.  Both approaches work.  The reason I left it in place was I was concerned about the fit of the DEF mantlet having cut the turret right back to remove the moulded strip, so before I fitted the DEF mantlet, I removed the bit of the turret moulded into the DEF mantlet cover at the bottom of the mantlet cover so that it was just the mantlet cover I was fitting (if that makes sense). 

 

You cant win with the DEF mantlet on the UnAmusing Hobby Turret - you either fit it as Jasper has and have the turret slightly longer, or you fir it as I did, but have to pad out the turret at the side slightly to address the gap.  Either option is a slight compromise but both work.  I'm not sure how good the fit of the DEF mantlet cover is on the AFV Club panzer, which is what it was designed for.

 

Anyway - here is mine fitted and completed so you can see this approach in a bit more detail with a couple of shots of the steps I went through

 

 

Finger nails are clean now 🙂

 

 

 

That was my 'gulp' moment.  You can see I've removed the bottom turret piece from the resin mantlet cover before taking the plunge...

 

 

 

That's the point at which I decided to go back further and remove the moulded strip

 

 

Strip gone

 

 

 

 

 

Tiny gap

 

 

This was before I get it properly central - that gap closed but still needed a teeny bit of padding out, but it was negligible

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[simmerit]

Here it is filled

 

 

 

 

And Mr Surfacer over the top to recreate the casting effect, which worked pretty well