End of war Bf109 screen grabs - trainers? and an odd repaint?

[Troy Smith]

Some of the George Stephens color film posted here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_Ihm5Ucfw

 

Wrecked Ju-88 at start.   I did comment on the link, but seems to have gone.

 

But what caught my eye was near the end,  two Bf109's, both from training unit?   Three digit numbers were used by training units.

Hard to tell subtype, probably G-6 or G-14.

 

this, red(?) 7,  has been repainted,  into a one colour green uppers,  not swastika on a pale background,  and the non-standard crosses on fuselage and wing.  Also, a red stripe on the wing tip, but maybe just red primer over a join.  Except, it quite a bright red

 

vlcsnap-00045 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

this one,   which is the other side of 7, again showing the non standard slim crosses underwing, and the red stripe. 

 

 Also, the fuselage of brown(?) or wine red (?) 384, as seen in the next two, along with 7 again.

vlcsnap-00047 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

vlcsnap-00046 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Not sure if 384 is in stanard greys, or some of the late war greens, 

 

I'll  @FalkeEins @SafetyDad @tank152  as maybe of interest to them.   

I know there is a colour shot of 3 digit Bf109 wreck in the Monogram guide to Luftwaffe painting.... with brown or wine red numbers.... now where is that book!   That was also in late war greens IIRC.

 

Hope of interest.

[JWM]

I think at end of war all training unit machines suitable for it  were used for defence, like even Bu 181 as tank buster with four Panzerfausts...

Interesting schemes!

regards

J-W

 

[Graham Boak]

Which does not mean that any of the older fighters got off the ground.  Lots of spare recent production aircraft and very little fuel: no-one is going to fly some clapped-out airframe of lesser performance even when new.   You'd get a lot of Bicker flights with the fuel for a single Bf.109 combat flight: the actual number of such operations is likely to have been pretty small anyway.

[Brad]

5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Which does not mean that any of the older fighters got off the ground.  Lots of spare recent production aircraft and very little fuel: no-one is going to fly some clapped-out airframe of lesser performance even when new.   You'd get a lot of Bicker flights with the fuel for a single Bf.109 combat flight: the actual number of such operations is likely to have been pretty small anyway.

 

I read somewhere that newer machines off the production line in the last months were so such poor production quality that some units reverted back to using older aircraft they got from training units. Many of their skilled mechanics had been drafted into the army and therefore squadrons were lacking the skilled people to bring the newly delivered aircraft up to spec.

[Troy Smith]

28 minutes ago, JWM said:

I think at end of war all training unit machines suitable for it  were used for defence,

No shortage of aircraft,  shortage of fuel and pilots.   So pilot training was still a vital resource, and while greatly cut back,  they still were flying. 

 

I messaged Marc Andre Haldimann who does a flickr of late war 109's, he says they are from 3./JG 104,  and the numbers are yellow.

 

Note., on the close up of 384, the fuel filler is a lighter colour

 

the colour I'm seeing is RLM 26 Braun.  

 

 

this is listed as Gelbe / yellow 388

 

but the numbers are a different tone to the fuel triangle. 

 

again, listed as gelbe 387, but fuel triangle does not match

 

 

maybe that they are listed in JG103 as being in yellow though? 

 

 

There are more Bf109 from training units here

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG100s.html

 

@SafetyDad, the image in Monogram German Aircraft painting guide, is bottom of page 43, and likely the same on page 34,  the image on page 43 says see red colour on page 69 for the 479,  which is red, but has an unidentified brown, (found on a Fw 190 restoration) that does look like the 479.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The Luftwaffe did have two different yellows.  I've no idea what colours were specified for the training units, but from the colour photo it could well be the more orange of the two

[Hook]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The Luftwaffe did have two different yellows.

RLM04 and RLM27 - the latter is somewhat lighter with less red.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Jochen Barett]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

No shortage of aircraft,  shortage of fuel and pilots.   So pilot training was still a vital resource, and while greatly cut back,  they still were flying. 

 

I messaged Marc Andre Haldimann who does a flickr of late war 109's, he says they are from 3./JG 104,  and the numbers are yellow.

 

Note., on the close up of 384, the fuel filler is a lighter colour

 

the colour I'm seeing is RLM 26 Braun.  

 

this is listed as Gelbe / yellow 388

 

but the numbers are a different tone to the fuel triangle. 

 

again, listed as gelbe 387, but fuel triangle does not match

 

maybe that they are listed in JG103 as being in yellow though? 

 

There are more Bf109 from training units here

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG100s.html

 

@SafetyDad, the image in Monogram German Aircraft painting guide, is bottom of page 43, and likely the same on page 34,  the image on page 43 says see red colour on page 69 for the 479,  which is red, but has an unidentified brown, (found on a Fw 190 restoration) that does look like the 479.

 

 

While acknowledging the existence of two RLM yellows and admitting to believe the octane triangle should be RLM 27 (https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235098490-colour-of-messerschmitt-bf-109-e-4-wheels-and-nose/&do=findComment&comment=4180998 ) and any tactical markings should be RLM 04, I doubt it is possible to achive the results shown in the "Gelbe 388" picture by simply using "any" combination of orthochromatic or panchromatic film and yellow/green/orange/blue/red/... filter in front of the lens since that woul affect the skin tones as well (giving darker faces when trying to tone down RLM 04 with a blue filter or orthochromatic film). RLM 26 seems pretty plausible to me.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Jochen Barett
typo

[SafetyDad]

Just caught up with this (on holiday in France). Thanks @Troy Smith for the shout. I think these pictures were taken at Furth at a railway depot. I’m sure I’ve seen 384 in a black and white print. Obviously I’m away from my books at the moment ( but I have a glass of wine to hand so all is not lost 😂). I can check later this week for you. 
 

SD

[SafetyDad]

Just returning to this now that I'm back from France. I'm still looking for the railhead pictures I recall were taken at Furth, but in the meantime here's another 109 with a 3 digit code - also apparently taken at Furth.

 

 

Picture is from here - a goldmine if you like end-of-war Luftwaffe wrecks

 

 

 

 

SD

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The "rote 7" in the first picture is not the only number.One can see a 8 or 6 in front of the 7 and in my opinion it is not red but yellow.The aircraft could be a Erla built late Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10 as according to the excellent book "Messerschmitt Bf 109 late versions camouflage and markings" from mushroom publications late aircraft built at Leipzig were painted completely in RLM 82 with the underside unpainted except for the flaps in RLM 76.What does not correspond are the Balkenkreuze.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited September 21, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Troy Smith]

8 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The "rote 7" in the first picture is not the only number.One can see a 0 or 6 in front of the 7 and in my opinion it is not red but yellow.

Marc Andre Haldimann says yellow, and that it's 387,  though the number is a different colour to the fuel filler.  I'm not seeing red or yellow, but Brown 26.  It was used for numbers late war, and 384 does not look to be in red,  note the res strips on the wing of '7' in the background.

 

8 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The aircraft could be a Erla built late Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10 as according to the excellent book "Messerschmitt Bf 109 late versions camouflage and markings" from mushroom publications late aircraft built at Leipzig were painted completely in RLM 82 with the underside unpainted except for the flaps in RLM 76.What does not correspond are the Balkenkreuze.

No.  For these reasons.

Short fin.  I've never seen a G-10 with a short fin.  And, if there is a 109 that needs the tall fin, it's a G-10.   

 

Erla did make 109's with a dark, low sided scheme,  but this is clearly a repaint, as the swastika is on a pale background.  Which would explain the weird crosses.  

Why would a G-10 be in training unit, they were the fastest Gustav. 

 

The MMP book is not a very good book,  it's pretty speculative especially on camouflage colours, and I'd not trust it on variant details either. 

 

The best books on late war Bf 109 colours are the JaPo books, but the info is spread over several books, and they are expensive when new, quickly go out of print and then are hard to find and eye wateringly expensive.... one book was about as pdf though.

 

The best guide to the Bf109 is this

http://www.caraktere.com/messerschmitt-bf-109-en.htm

 

but it's not very modeller friendly,  and being a translation, can be a bit stilted to read. 

  

 

cheers

T

[GiampieroSilvestri]

You are right that the aircraft in the picture probably is another version but here is a picture of a Erla built Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-14 of JG104 so the Fliegerschulen had later version Bf 109.🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Troy Smith]

28 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

so the Fliegerschulen had later version Bf 109.

@SafetyDad posted a G-14/AS above.    The photo you posted is very interesting,  with unusual camouflage, but is still a G-6 or G-14, the tall tail was pretty common. Is there a higher resolution of this? 

 

 I was suggesting the highest performing 109's,  which is the G-10,  would not end up in training units. The G-14/AS was not as powerful, but similar, so that makes sense as to why it was in training unit.  That is assuming the caption is correct!

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Here is the link to a bigger version of that picture.

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG100s/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G14-Erla-2.JG104-Black-93-Germany-1944-01.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

[SafetyDad]

24 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Here is the link to a bigger version of that picture.

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG100s/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G14-Erla-2.JG104-Black-93-Germany-1944-01.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

Not sure I would want to model that specific airframe Giampiero! That wave mottle might take a little time to pull off!

 

SD

[Jochen Barett]

Browsing through the comments of the film (first post) it is showing

https://www.fuerthwiki.de/wiki/index.php/Flugplatz_Fürth-Atzenhof

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alter_Flughafen_Atzenhof

https://www.forgottenairfields.com/airfield-feurth-atzenhof-1106.html

https://www.google.com/maps/search/fürth+atzenhof+flugplatz/@49.4987653,10.9471824,13z?hl=de

and JG 104 was stationed there. So maybe it is worth it to investigate in JG 104 a little more.

 

Browsing through the links above, there may be some planes left at that spot, deposited by the US Army in a "landfill" a few years ago, maybe we would just have to dig up the golf course and find some remains.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Jochen Barett