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Khaki Green (Aus) paint


Phil Evans

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Hi,

 

A friend of mine has Bison decals for Australian Matildas in Bougainville and it refers to Khaki Green (Aus) paint. This has got us stumped so I was wondering if anyone would have any references for a match? I wonder if it has something to do with Khaki Green 3 as I think Australia may have produced their own at some point?

 

Any assistance would be much appreciated

 

Phil

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That would stump me, too. Were these ex-WDF/8th Army vehicles? Or ex-UK? If the latter, KG3 makes sense because why would they be repainted? If the former (maybe more likely), then they must have been repainted; in which case, I would only be guessing about what was used. Brett Green made an Aussie Matilda for a magazine a while ago, but I can't find any reference to it on the web now.

Edited by Ade H
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The source of the Australian tanks seems to be unclear.  Most sources agree that supply did not begin until 1942 - when KG3 was being ousted by SCC2 as the factory colour - and that Matilda production ended in 1943.  So new build is certainly possible.  These might have been factory finished in KG3 initially but certainly later in SCC2.  But there would have been some surplus from N Africa with no other purpose.  About 400 were supplied and I cannot imagine that there were 400 spare from N Africa.  UK based units with Matildas would have been re-equipped with Churchills, throwing up more surplus Matildas.

 

Some of the 3" CS tanks came from New Zealand in 1944, but their original source is equally uncertain.  However it seems that the first 200 Matildas to arrive in Australia had to be cannibalised to generate 100 serviceable tanks, indicating that they were very second-hand.  That might indicate N Africa as the source as one would expect tanks from UK home units to be better-maintained.

 

So it would seem that the balance of probability is that the first 200 or so Matildas probably have arrived in Australia in desert colours and the later 200 or so most likely in SCC2.  And that circles us back to a local colour being used.  Could Australia make KG3 in 1943-44?  Possibly not, for the same reasons the UK was forced to switch to SCC2 between mid-1942 and early 1944: lack of chrome oxide pigments.  Australia did have one relatively small Chromite mine but Chromium was in great demand for other purposes. 

 

KG3 is usually described as a brownish green.  But it isn't much of a stretch to something like the WW1 Service Colour, usually described as a greenish brown.  That is something Australia would probably have had the earth pigments to make.  Preserved Australian Matildas do seem to be a notably brownish shade, if that is to be trusted.  So I might suggest a colour somewhere between KG3 and SCC2 as the "Australian KG3".

 

Interestingly, at least one paint company includes their KG3 in Australian paint sets as the Australian Vietnam era colour.

 

Just my thoughts...........

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I thought perhaps the last production runs would have been allocated for lend lease, and if so, whatever Australia had would have been 2nd-hand of one source or another. I can't find a figure for how many reached N.E. Africa and/or Middle East, but I agree that it could hardly have accounted for them all.

 

See what a rabbit hole you've dug up, Phil? 😁

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Nothing to do with Lend-Lease, which was lending US production  to the UK (initially - later to other Allies).  The Matildas were built in the UK, and it certainly seems reasonable that late production  ones would have been sent to Australia, where such obsolescent material would still be put to good use.  However, I've always understood that the "jungle green" was Australian in origin.

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Yes, if you want be exact, I know that it's not Lend-Lease, but I see people calling it that as a shorthand. I really don't see the issue with doing so.

Edited by Ade H
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Apparently the Egyptian Army had some Matildas in 1948, so at least some stayed in N Africa. Matildas were effectively out of service by Alamein after Crusader and Gazala attrition.  That might suggest that the remaining few were given to Egypt and few if any were available to send to Australia, 

 

Matildas for Russia were mostly 1942 production I believe, the year of peak Matilda production, and almost 1/3 of total production went there (and more than twice as many as went to Australia).  As free gifts at huge cost, neither loaned nor leased.  But I understood what Ade meant.  Let's not argue over the terminology.  The Arrangement was called British Empire War Assistance to Russia and if anyone is interested this is the list of equipment supplied as presented to Parliament in 1946. https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1946/apr/16/russia-british-empire-war-assistance

 

Not that any of this helps with colour determination.  It seems likely, even certain, that the Matildas were repainted whatever the source or arrival colour.  I'm still thinking a browner shade of normal KG3 is a strong contender.  But could we possibly be talking about SCC16 Very Dark Drab here?  This was a colour specifically for the Far East but I'm not sure its use has ever been definitively documented.

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13 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

British Empire War Assistance to Russia

That's the one. I just couldn't be bothered to type all that... 😉

 

@Phil Evans Anyway, I've found Brett Green's Aussie Matilda build in case it's helpful. It's in Model Military, #135, July 2017. He built "Castlemaine" and used Tamiya's mix for what I assume is the correct factory colour (at least in the fertile imagination of Tamiya's researchers) which is 1 part XF-59 and 2 parts XF-62. If you or anyone else know(s) what this mix looks like, it may provide an answer. I think that if they had been painted differently, Brett Green would have known. HTH.

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Thanks everyone for such detailed responses. I've passed this onto my mate and I'm sure he'll be as impressed as I am with the depth of knowledge here.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

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Some time ago I asked @Mike Starmer what colours an Australian Grant ARV in a rather fetching two-tone scheme was in.  This was his answer:

 

"In early 1942 the Australians adopted a two coloured scheme for all vehicles as seen in the Grant in that image. I have a drawing of that pattern. The basic colour was ASC 'W' Light Earth with the patterning in ASC 'J' Khaki Green' These colours are not the same as the British colours of those names. The information I have from Australia on these are that ASC 'W' is between FS.33303 and 34201, I mixed this with Humbrols, 3 x H118 + 4 x H84 and ASC 'J' is similar to FS.33070 which is 5 x H150 + 1 x H100 + touch of 33 black. By 1943 these patterns were all replaced by a series of three coloured schemes using a range of different colours according to the areas in which they served."

 

Bottom line: Austalian ASC 'J' Khaki Green bears no relation to British early war Khaki Green and can be mixed using 5 x Humbrol 150 + 1 x Humbrol 100 + a touch of Humbrol 33 black.

 

HTH.

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