1/350 Carriers Taiho and Graf Zeppelin

[beefy66]

Sam I found this in a seaforth book I will be going for something similar when I get back to my build of GZ the Tirpitz style looks a very good option.  

 

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[S-boat 55]

@beefy66 there is certainly a touch of of tirpitz about that, 

 

I must say I'm being won around by the idea of at least giving it a go, I shall try the splinter type I thibk and worst case I can revert to something simpler. I wish I hadn't put all of those blasted struts on  now though. 

 

I shall put an order in a sovereignhobbies.co.uk to get the shade I need, 

[S-boat 55]

Hi all, 

 

Bit of an update - I keep getting drawn back to Zeppy, I think its because when i do something on her its immediately apparent, Taiho is less so obvious. 

 

Firstly to keep with my traditions - being the anniversary (on the 18th) of the scuttling of the other famous Graf - Spee, I decided to do an hour on her. The academy kit is a bit hit and miss, lots of filling and issues ot resolve which is all the more odd given their Warspite kit is very good.

 

Here's the pair together;

 

 

Moving back to Graf Zeppelin, I decided to do a bit on the flight deck, Eduard have you do some failr major surgery to the forward area to add in a support structure and extendable catapults etc, here's the start,

 

Cutting out areas was a little nerve racking but all in all it largely went okay

 

This is the new base (seen 'inverted') that has to be fitted, 

 

I did however damage the very tip of the flight deck removing the detail beneath, there's a step at the forward most part which has to be cut away so as to be flat, this is tricky to do as it takes the forward edge down to almost paper thin at the tip, 

 

I've filled that with a bit of superglue and hopefully that will sand smooth,

 

Eduard want you to do further surgery but on the super structure, cutting away where I've highlighted, having looked at the kit part and the Eduard alternative i don't think the juice is worth the squeeze so it'll stay as is I think and I'll add some detail to it. If i did it, all it will do is create an awkward seam to try and resolve,

 

Couple of shots of things dry fitted with a few pieces of the deck, the funnel went together well, I decided not to adjust it, in my opinion the cowl wouldnt have been that pronounced but to change it would be a real headache as the fins inside wouldnt then fit. 

 

I've got to decide what to do at the front of the floght deck, my personal choice is no swastikas, I appreciate history is there to be learned from and hiding it doesnt help that which is true but my home is also not a museum and so history then has little impact. I did see one build where a chap has used an old German insignia at the front but i dont know where id find something like it, his version is below credited within the image, 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for stopping in, 

 

Have a happy Christmas

 

Sam

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by S-boat 55

[Faraway]

1 hour ago, S-boat 55 said:

Graf - Spee,

It must be some sort of telepathy, I was looking at my Graf Spee, this very afternoon. But decided to stick with HMS’s for the next build.

Jon

[S-boat 55]

1 hour ago, Faraway said:

It must be some sort of telepathy, I was looking at my Graf Spee, this very afternoon. But decided to stick with HMS’s for the next build.

Jon

You know what they say about great minds.....

[Adm Lord De Univers]

3 hours ago, S-boat 55 said:

my personal choice is no swastikas,

An interesting topic in itself, but one I doubt (for brevity's sake) you want all over this build log. My own personal take is also no swastikas, but that's mainly because my partner did a long stint working on anti-far right stuff, having any of her former colleagues around might also raise some eyebrows.

 

That said, I personally don't object as it's a representation of something historical, even if what it represents is quite hideous. On decks it will be greyed over or natural wood, and flags omitted or changed out for me.

 

David

[Jochen Barett]

5 hours ago, S-boat 55 said:

+++ I've got to decide what to do at the front of the floght deck, my personal choice is no swastikas, I appreciate history is there to be learned from and hiding it doesnt help that which is true but my home is also not a museum and so history then has little impact. I did see one build where a chap has used an old German insignia at the front but i dont know where id find something like it, his version is below credited within the image, 

+++

 

+++

 

I think a "plain wooden deck" will be less irritating / itchy to the eyes than a spurious logo (pointing the observer to think about the absence of a certain logo).

[S-boat 55]

38 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

I think a "plain wooden deck" will be less irritating / itchy to the eyes than a spurious logo (pointing the observer to think about the absence of a certain logo).

Thats a very interesting read on it/idea, I might well just go with that, 

[S-boat 55]

Just to prove I've been doing something - I've been building little planes, 

 

Im very much at a loss as to how to arrange them, I've toyed with having all the ME 109's at the front and all the Stukas to the rear with a few Stukas in the hangars folded up but not sure that looks right, 

 

This angle makes it clar quite how long and thin she is - a little canoe like really, especially when you compare her deck to that of Taiho or Ark Royal that I absolutely did not find and purchase for a steal on ebay....more on that another time. 

 

Thinking of having the lifts part way up certainly on a couple of them, some of the 109's are only part built, 

 

I can only imagine that handling all the aircraft would have been nothing short of a nightmare, complicated by the catapult system had she ever of seen service, The double hangar covers the first two 'wells' from what I can tell, and if drawings of her are to be believed the tramway for the catapult carts only served the forward to wells. The purpose of the system was to be able to bring planes up the the flight deck 'ready to go' - they were to have warmers for the engines the lot in the hangar so that in northern latitudes there was no need to bring the planes up and then warm them up on deck, it would be up and go which makes a lot of sense. Assuming that you would want your fighters as the primary planes to use the catapults as they would be most likely needed ready for scramble that would mean the 109's would likely have to be in the lower hangar served by the tramway. The Stukas would then work their way through the upper hangar to launch from the back. Now assuming the 109's not catapulted would need more of the deck to take off (18 was the absolute max that could be) and that they are quicker so you would want your bombers up first with the fighters well able to catch up as escort. Surely though that would mean that in order to arrange the flight deck for a larger take off with waves of bombers with escorting fighters the 109's would have to come up first and be pushed all the way to the back of the flight deck to allow the stukas to be brought up in the middle. This then exposes the design issue with the hull, she isn't wide enough to cater for a large number of planes adjacent to the island which is more of a peninsula in length. Assuming things are reasonably to scale this means having to bunch most of the air group at the stern which is fine but then the middle lift gets in the way. I'd guess they were planning for anything using the catapult to use the forward and centre lift and be brought up ready at which point those lifts are 'locked' to allow other planes to be moved backwards through the hangar and brought up at the rear. That leaves me wondering if the lifts or some of them were doubled as in Ark royal so you could move planes between hangars without affecting the flight deck. (of course if this is the case it buggers up my 'being able to see the lower hangar' idea. Alternatively they hadn't thought of that and it would have been a flaw they learnt about during the early days of her operation. 

 

Based on the idea of having Stukas in the the middle with a last group of 109's to the rear as escort that's be something like this I think;

 

 

Apologies my wittering's likely make no real sense - long and the short of it is Im ordering a few more planes as I think I want her to look visually busy;

 

Anyone happen to know how many planes in a squadron the luftwaffe worked on during the war? 

 

thanks for putting up with me thinking out loud, 

 

Happy New Year

 

Sam

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by S-boat 55

[Faraway]

Were the 109's and Stuka's special versions, d'you think ? 

They would need an arrester hook fitted, and I doubt a standard airframe would be strong enough ?

Or did they not land back on board, I wonder ?

Jon

[S-boat 55]

20 minutes ago, Faraway said:

Were the 109's and Stuka's special versions, d'you think ? 

They would need an arrester hook fitted, and I doubt a standard airframe would be strong enough ?

Or did they not land back on board, I wonder ?

Jon

Hi Jon, 

 

They were indeed, they had exactly as you describe (this also reminds me I haven't yet put the hooks on, need to do that before I get painting) the Stukas had folding wings that pivoted to fold back rather than up, but the 109s didnt though so although smaller I expect they were  /would have been more cumbersome, the stukas could have sat 2/3 abreast in the hangar, not so the 109s. 

 

From reading more about it the lower hangar had a lower ceiling height (which I think I'd forgotten I knew) so that lends more weight to the 109s being in the lower of the two as they were smaller

[Courageous]

4 hours ago, S-boat 55 said:

ME 109's at the front and all the Stukas

And all will be individually marked and serialed accordingly ................

 

Happy New Year

Stuart

[S-boat 55]

14 minutes ago, Courageous said:

And all will be individually marked and serialed accordingly ................

 

Happy New Year

Stuart

You must be dreaming, I thibk I lack the patience 

[Courageous]

3 minutes ago, S-boat 55 said:

You must be dreaming, I thibk I lack the patience 

Indeed I was and I wouldn't I either.

 

Stuart

[S-boat 55]

I couldn't help but have a look at Ark Royal, she's taped together off the sprues next to Zeppy below, and will go into the cupboard until I get to her at some point. I thought it would be an interesting comparison to look at them both together, 

 

Ark isnt quite as much bigger as the photo suggests but there is a marked difference in better space at the forward flight deck and a bit more space opposite the island. Her over hang gives her a flight deck of very similar length. I'd guess that the beamier appearance is due to the difference in shape of the hull dictated by admiralty requirements for x and y ports. 

 

One thing that stands out though so how much higher Arks flight deck is that Zeppelins, I'd need to look up their draught figures but I suspect Arks deck would have been higher anyway given her lower displacement. Here it doesn't show it clearly but her FD is the same height as the platform on Zeppys funnel, 

 

 

Back to the proper stuff, figured it was time to finish off the upper hangar, many many strips of 0.5x0.25mm evergreen strip going on. Was reasonably quick when I got into it, took a couple of nights, under way below, 

 

 

The darker grey plastic at the end is a refashioned spare part from Taihos under deck support which is replaced with etch, I couldn't carry on with the evergreen strips as i'd all but run out, 

 

 

Et viola all done, think it looks alright, a few are a little squif but don't think it'll notice from the angle when looking through the lift openings, 

 

 

Thanks for stopping in,

 

Sam

 

 

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Interesting comparison with Ark.  Given the fact that Ark was “shipping it green” even at flight deck level during the Bismarck chase / action, it suggests that Zeppy might have been a challenging ship to operate in the North Atlantic.

[S-boat 55]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Interesting comparison with Ark.  Given the fact that Ark was “shipping it green” even at flight deck level during the Bismarck chase / action, it suggests that Zeppy might have been a challenging ship to operate in the North Atlantic.

That's a great point that hadn't dawned on me, Taiho is similarly lower than Ark but obviously for the Pacific and part of that was due to the larger weight devoted to protection (which turned out to be pretty useless) 

 

While I think of it, was it north star you got your scuttles for your Ark? I'll be very slowly picking bits up for her over the next year or two I expect, 

Edited January 8, 2022 by S-boat 55
Chuffing autocorrect

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

6 minutes ago, S-boat 55 said:

That's a great point that hadn't dawned on me, Taiho is similarly lower than Ark but obviously for the Pacific and part of that was due to the larger weight devoted to protection (which turned out to be pretty useless) 

 

While I think of it, was it north star you got your succtkes for your Ark? I'll be very slowly picking bits up for her over the next year or two I expect, 

A combo of North Star, Tetra (their detail-up set is expensive but superb) and Micro Master (his HACS tubs are astonishingly good, and he does a specific anchor set for Ark; the Merit anchors are awful)

[S-boat 55]

25 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

A combo of North Star, Tetra (their detail-up set is expensive but superb) and Micro Master (his HACS tubs are astonishingly good, and he does a specific anchor set for Ark; the Merit anchors are awful)

I found the tetra for a bargain on evil Bay, I shall have to look to the others as well, I can see me needing to tackle the portholes as you have, hence she's a while off in thw queue, 

[bismarck builder]

guys

i always said the Graf was a bad design but i meant the aircraft handling i too had not considered seaworthiness

cheers

gary r   

[beefy66]

Some great detail ideas going into this build taking notes all the way.  

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[73north]

22 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

..... and Micro Master (his HACS tubs are astonishingly good, and he does a specific anchor set for Ark; the Merit anchors are awful)

 

Ordered the Ark Royal Anchors tonight ( not aware they were available , so thank you for that very helpful post ) 

it was your discovery that the Ark Royal anchors with the kit were undersized

that is extremely helpful as well , thank you 🙏 

[S-boat 55]

A quick update, got Taiho out to start getting her back up and running, here she is with Ark and Zepplin, 

 

Just to build on the remarks the other day concerning a marked difference in flight deck height above the water line, I looked up Taiho and Arks respective draught figures and adjusted their height relative and you get what must be a two-three deck difference, Taiho does admittedly sit low in the water but by much more than expected, you can see her strake of armour on the side,  of course it could just be that Ark Royal was just very tall, 

 

 

 

The kit continues to fit together a dream, the standard version as an oob build would yield very good results I think, the flight deck seam is very very good, i did a few passes with a sanding stick and it came together like this;

 

 

Not the most exciting picture, but im now working my way up each side on the platforms, I've stripped the underside of the moulded gusset/supports and will install the photo etch when on, 

 

 

I think only the Japanese would be unique enough to install sloping decks, especially externally but here is one;

 

(im assuming the top are ladder rungs and below are rigging eyelets)

 

However I've run into a quandary, the kit comes with individual steps/rungs to mount direct to eh hull, along with a drilling template, I'm guessing it would need to be a 0.1 or 0.2 size - my 0.3 drill bit looks too big, if I carry on with doing the platforms I wont be able to get the template in place to drill so need to decide pronto really, if I do go for it then I'll drill the holes first, the fit everything around it and apply these just prior to painting. Id guess there is a knack to doing this sort of thing though, 

 

Questions are though,  

a) will a 0.1mm drill bit last longer than doing a few holes before breaking

b) if you do them do you drill all the way through and glue from the inside or is it better to put the ca on the end of the rung and stick it in

c) would watered down pva actually be better for this, fill the hole from the inside, put the rung in place and then wipe away excess perhaps? 

c) is it really worth it

 

Comments gratefully received, 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by S-boat 55

[Adm Lord De Univers]

14 hours ago, S-boat 55 said:

only the Japanese would be unique enough to install sloping decks, especially externally but here is one;

Is this all part of (what I call) the boat chutes (I believe its the same on Yama but I'd need to check the plans)? Odd that the slope extends externally though, might also aid getting planes to the lift if it does so all the way across (inside) too?

 

In my admittedly very little experience:

A) depends on quality, material of drill, and ensuring you are drilling squarely into the hole. I've had a 1mm bit last from anywhere from none (2 bits 0 holes, drilling at significant angle) to 100 holes. My experience has taught me to do this earlier when you can more easily access and get that angle straight to reduce 'load' on the drill.

B and c) dunno. I can't remember if this bismarck build (around page 5) detailed this. Looks like he did go through given experimenting with his own ones first. Gluing other side might be neater?

D) up to you really, I'd question whether it would bother you to know I'd they were missing or not. I doubt most people would realise their absence, but you'd know. Personally I'd be tempted to leave them off but mainly as my sausage fingers would make short work of them anyway.

 

David

[S-boat 55]

@Adm Lord De Univers good pointer re  @Gisbods Bismarck build, embarrassingly I even commented on it but have a memory like a sieve at times, 

 

I'm still mulling over whether to try them or not, trouble is I can't do much more on the platforms until I decide, 

 

The sloping rear one does have a boat secured from davits at its foremost point but aside that I can't see the reason for it, that said this ship is still quite the mystery really so I think educated guesses is all there will ever be,