Jump to content

Scale ModelWorld 2021 (aka Telford) - is on!


John Tapsell
 Share

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

Do you have any suggestions as to what the alternative funding-source could be, Duncan? Clubs will not support paying for their presence, after decades of attending for free. This is not a criticsm of this well-established set-up, by the way. It's simply a statement of fact.

 

I helped organise the Elstree Model show in 2019. If we had not had the use of the venue's kitchen, our profit-margin would have been virtually non-existent.  

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

I agree that the income from selling space to the Traders has been the main source of income for Club Shows in the UK for many years and while I'm not suggesting for a minute that Traders shouldn't be paying for their spaces I do think that there are other sources of income worth investigating to spread the costs around more rather than just lumping the Traders with the ever increasing costs of putting on a Club Show as that is not sustainable.  For example, I received an email from a Club recently about their Show for next year and it basically said that the venue costs had increased, the table hire costs had increased, other costs had increased so the Traders were going to have to foot the bill. The email went straight into the 'bin' unanswered as it was quite clear that the expectations of that Club were that the Traders alone should pay for the Club's jolly day out. This is not a particularly well attended Show in the scheme of things so there is a real limit to what Traders will pay to attend it regardless of what that Club Committee might think. Each Show has its own 'footprint' so being realistic with the planning goes a long way to looking after costs, don't hire Wembley Stadium and expect 200 Traders to turn up for a Show that only attracts 200 punters through the door.

Maybe it is time for Clubs to start paying for their tables? If they have to be hired in then someone has to pay for them and if the Clubs want to sell 'under the table' then charge them the going rate for a table to sell from instead. It is definitely time to stop Clubs bringing unlimited numbers of folk along for free as current restrictions limit how many can be behind the tables anyway. Issue x number of free tickets to Clubs and tell them the others have to pay at the door. There was a Show (sorry, I can't remember which now) that did away with under table sales but had extra tables set up that could be hired by individuals or Clubs on an hourly basis to sell from. That seemed to work well and the hourly cost was not too prohibitive to stop the sales but was a decent amount of extra revenue over the period of the Show. Less of an organisational drain than a kit swap too.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas folk could come up with if they needed to get creative to fund their shows. Spreading the cost around might not be popular with those who have had it good for many years but the alternative might be not having so many Shows in the future which will not be palatable either.

 

Duncan B 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect modelling clubs are not actually making much (anything) in the way of money anyway, so I don't think that "had it good for many years" is a particularly relevant comment.  However, I do think that all tables used at an event should be charged for (organising club excepted) so this would be an appropriate step.  This would clearly include Special Interest groups as well.  I would also suggest that this could be extended to the competition tables, competitors having to pay an entrance fee - my apologies to any who already do this!  The alternative is to try increasing the entry charge - but it seems that many modellers haven't kept up with the rises in prices of anything since 1970. 

 

However this may be biased because I find such things secondary to whatever is available in the trading area.  Not that meeting old acquaintances isn't fun in itself, and it's great to see interesting models (as opposed to yet more of the already over-familiar),  but seeing what's new and extending the library/paint stocks/stash is what draws me out of my modelling room.  Judging from the large carrier bags coming out of the halls, that's true for a lot of other people as well.  I don't think that anything reducing the number of attending traders will be a way of increasing attendance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/11/2021 at 1:11 PM, Duncan B said:

Many Clubs might have to consider a different approach to funding their shows in the future rather than relying on the income from Traders to cover the bulk of the costs if they want to put shows on.

 

I think we might have a couple of crossed-wires here. All I was saying is that, traditionally, VISITING model Clubs have not been charged to attend regional model-shows. Even Telford does not charge the various Clubs and SIG's (to the best of my knowledge). I would guess that clubs would consider their time and petrol-costs as more than expenditure enough (and I wouln't disagree with this).   

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

I think we might have a couple of crossed-wires here. All I was saying is that, traditionally, VISITING model Clubs have not been charged to attend regional model-shows. Even Telford does not charge the various Clubs and SIG's (to the best of my knowledge). I would guess that clubs would consider their time and petrol-costs as more than expenditure enough (and I wouln't disagree with this).   

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

And I would reiterate my earlier comment that some organising clubs DO charge visiting clubs for additional tables, over and above a minumum allocation of tables per club. Those shows remain large and successful events and attract many of the same clubs that attend shows who don't charge for extra tables, so the attitude of travelling clubs may not be as entrenched as you might think.
 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Duncan B said:

It is definitely time to stop Clubs bringing unlimited numbers of folk along for free as current restrictions limit how many can be behind the tables anyway. Issue x number of free tickets to Clubs and tell them the others have to pay at the door.

I can name a number of shows that have done exactly this for a number of years, my own (MK) among them.  In your second sentence x typically = 4 to 6.

Edited by MikeC
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/14/2021 at 10:58 AM, Duncan B said:

Do EU Retailers have to fill in full import/export paperwork for temporarily moving their stock around the EU single market to attend shows? I always assumed they were free to move goods around internally without it but could be wrong on that. Maybe someone in the know could update me on those points.

Generally no,  if full member of all the sub-treaties and options within EU membership.

https://www.emta.ee/eng/business-client/customs-trade-goods/commonunion-transit-procedure

 

Quote

In the course of the internal Union transit procedure Union goods may be conveyed from one place to another in the territory of the EU through a country or a territory outside the EU without the change of the customs status.

The rules for the Union transit procedure are provided for in the Union Customs Code (UCC), in the Delegated Regulation and the Implementing Regulation of the UCC.

 

 

I certainly don't get hit with import duty in NL when getting stuff from IT, DE, BE, FR, CZ, or PL (to name a few :P )

 

But local Customs laws may differ from member state to member state (although they should be mostly 'harmonised').  

@Tiger331 probably knows this one, but these are the general guidelines for Estonia.

https://www.emta.ee/eng/private-client/travelling-postal-consignments/consignments-within-european-union

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I suspect modelling clubs are not actually making much (anything) in the way of money anyway, so I don't think that "had it good for many years" is a particularly relevant comment. 

 

I could have phrased that better, I wasn't suggesting anywhere in my post above that the Organisers of Shows make any sort of profit from putting on Shows, well done to them if they do. Those who have "had it good" are the exhibitors (and under table traders) that haven't had to pay a penny to attend in previous years at the many Shows that don't ask for any payment for Tables etc. As I said above, maybe it's time that they should be looking to contribute financially at the Shows they are not already asked to.

 

18 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

I think we might have a couple of crossed-wires here. All I was saying is that, traditionally, VISITING model Clubs have not been charged to attend regional model-shows. Even Telford does not charge the various Clubs and SIG's (to the best of my knowledge). I would guess that clubs would consider their time and petrol-costs as more than expenditure enough (and I wouln't disagree with this).   

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

 

I don't think I misunderstood you but apologies if I did. You asked for ideas and asking visiting Clubs to pay for their tables was one I put forward (as I know there are some shows that already do this).

 

 

15 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

And I would reiterate my earlier comment that some organising clubs DO charge visiting clubs for additional tables, over and above a minumum allocation of tables per club. Those shows remain large and successful events and attract many of the same clubs that attend shows who don't charge for extra tables, so the attitude of travelling clubs may not be as entrenched as you might think.
 

 

Indeed they do and perhaps forward thinking and changing the previously entrenched thoughts are contributing factors to why these particular Shows are still successful events. All I am suggesting in my previous posts is that previously entrenched thinking towards how Shows are funded needs to be looked at going forward as the current model (pardon the pun) is unsustainable and the Show circuit will be the worse for it going forward if things don't change. Something that none of us want to see.

 

3 hours ago, MikeC said:

I can name a number of shows that have done exactly this for a number of years, my own (MK) among them.  In your second sentence x typically = 4 to 6.

 

And I'm sure the MK Show hasn't suffered unduly for taking that step forward. 

 

If my previous posts are coming over as being anti-Model Show then that is not my intention. The Show circuit has provided me with inspiration, entertainment and laterally an income so the healthier the show circuit is the better for me and everyone else. By questioning the currently established system of funding of shows I am hoping to stimulate thoughts on how things can be improved for a sustainable future and also to point out to those that may not have considered that most Traders are not going to be able to sustain the spiralling costs of funding shows on their own. There will always be individuals that think all Traders are driving around in Bentleys and are making a huge profit every time they turn up at Shows, if they are then I haven't met them. Those folk will always consider posts like mine to be crying wolf but hopefully enough people in a position to consider changes in how shows are organised will have more considered thoughts on the subject.

 

Duncan B

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Generally no,  if full member of all the sub-treaties and options within EU membership.

https://www.emta.ee/eng/business-client/customs-trade-goods/commonunion-transit-procedure

 

 

 

I certainly don't get hit with import duty in NL when getting stuff from IT, DE, BE, FR, CZ, or PL (to name a few :P )

 

But local Customs laws may differ from member state to member state (although they should be mostly 'harmonised').  

@Tiger331 probably knows this one, but these are the general guidelines for Estonia.

https://www.emta.ee/eng/private-client/travelling-postal-consignments/consignments-within-european-union

 

 

Lucky You !........Understand some are now adding charges as part of COVID-19 'dividends' (i.e. States looking to re-coup non budgeted costs for dealing with COVID-19. Tip of the iceberg, I fear. I think we all need to understand that, one way or another, Governments (and government institutions) will be looking at ways to reccoup money while avoiding the hugely unpopular route of direct taxation increases (so they will do it through indirect taxation - money for COVID-19 measures has to come from somewhere.    

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With respect to all, I think it's probably time we dragged this thread (kicking and screaming) back to the subject in hand, which is Scale Modelworld.

 

I think the discussion over how shows are structured and funded now (and into the future) is extremely valuable, timely and useful, but perhaps as a stand-alone discussion rather than within the boundaries of a thread specific to one show?

 

I'm biased. I started the thread, so ideally I'd like to keep it relevant to SMW please.

 

Thanks,

John

Edited by John Tapsell
  • Like 10
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

ideally I'd like to keep it relevant to SMW please.

👍

Being overseas, this year is not an option with all the changing uncertaincies (brace yourselves, winter is coming).

Maybe next year I will take the plunge. For now I'll keep it at ESM and see how that goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 15/09/2021 at 21:25, John Tapsell said:

With respect to all, I think it's probably time we dragged this thread (kicking and screaming) back to the subject in hand, which is Scale Modelworld.

 

I think the discussion over how shows are structured and funded now (and into the future) is extremely valuable, timely and useful, but perhaps as a stand-alone discussion rather than within the boundaries of a thread specific to one show?

 

I'm biased. I started the thread, so ideally I'd like to keep it relevant to SMW please.

 

Thanks,

John

I think the comments from traders about the funding of shows is very relevant to SMW & more importantly the future of this and other shows, moreso than the fog of Covid passports.

 

15 - 20 years ago similar rumblings started amongst traders at model railway shows. At that time it every town had it's model club, every club its model show. It was not uncommon during show season to be able to vist 2 or three shows in a weekend all within 1 hours travel. Now it possible to go a couple on months between accessible shows. 

 

The reason - increased stand rents. First the specialists found stand rents un-affordable and dropped out resulting in a decline in attendance (Hornby etc coulde be bought on every high street at the time). Box shifters replaced the specialists, traders competed in a race to the bottom (price wise), couldn't make a profit & dropped out. Falling trade support resulted in many clubs barely breaking even or actually making a loss.

 

Those shows that were seen to be successful were soon in the sight of commercial interests of publishing companies and the Ilk who stepped on the clubs by hiring large venues & putting on their own shows using massive free publicity thus overshadowing & killing a source of income for the clubs.

 

Even clubs in 'towns' like Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, can't hold a model railway show.

 

Covid-19 has given model kit retailers both time and opportunity to re-assess their situation, especially with regards to online trading. Many have come to the same conclusion that traders @ model railway shows came to a decade or so ago. Shows, including SMW don't pay & if they don't pay we'll stop attending.

 

The downward spiral has started and unless a solution can be found quickly SMW is unlikely to survive the decade.

 

Traders I hope that an alternative funding method can be found that's ameanable to all parties. Pray to God that it doesn't head the way model railway shows operate commercially as not only are exhibition running costs covered but the attending clubs with their layouts are also paid expenses, usually at commercial 'hire' rates.

 

@andy g - clarification regards comments in your post below

 

Apologies forgot the Manchester show had restarted following a few years without a show after a disasterous spell. The 'new' show is not a patch on previous years & I understand from club members there are no year on year commitments.

 

I am aware there is a show in Birmingham, but as I said "Even clubs in 'towns' like Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, can't hold a model railway show.", the show at the NEC is run by a limited Company (Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd) not a club and is promoted as a National event not a Birmingham event, much as the IPMS promote Telford as an International event not a Telford event.

Edited by Circloy
clarifications added
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Circloy said:

Even clubs in 'towns' like Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, can't hold a model railway show.

Beg to differ, but both Manchester and Birmingham have shows.

Manchester Show

Don't get your hopes up though, this year's show has been 'postponed'.

 

The Birmingham show is a small affair at somewhere called the NEC.

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/15/2021 at 9:25 PM, John Tapsell said:

With respect to all, I think it's probably time we dragged this thread (kicking and screaming) back to the subject in hand, which is Scale Modelworld.

 

I think the discussion over how shows are structured and funded now (and into the future) is extremely valuable, timely and useful, but perhaps as a stand-alone discussion rather than within the boundaries of a thread specific to one show?

 

I'm biased. I started the thread, so ideally I'd like to keep it relevant to SMW please.

 

Thanks,

John

Hi John, when can we expect to see a list of traders attending on the website? 

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Circloy said:

I think the comments from traders about the funding of shows is very relevant to SMW & more importantly the future of this and other shows, moreso than the fog of Covid passports.

---

Pray to God that it doesn't head the way model railway shows operate commercially as not only are exhibition running costs covered but the attending clubs with their layouts are also paid expenses, usually at commercial 'hire' rates.

---

the show at the NEC is run by a limited Company (Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd) not a club and is promoted as a National event not a Birmingham event, much as the IPMS promote Telford as an International event not a Telford event.


Circloy,

On you first point - yes the discussion is relevant to SMW but my point (which you seem to have missed entirely) is that the subject deserves a separate discussion because it relates to many shows, not just SMW. If it takes place within a thread that is just about SMW then the value of the discussion is going to get lost in the static - it needs a separate thread to do the topic justice and to ensure it doesn't 'disappear' after SMW 2021 is over.


On your point about how MR shows operate - in the model railway world, it has always been a tradition that the organising club pays the travel expenses of visiting clubs and exhibitors. It isn't new and it isn't the result of commercial interests getting involved.

 

On your last point - perhaps you should investigate who Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd actually are? I don't know why Warley Model Railway Club chose to go the route of setting up a Ltd Co. in 1992. but I'd be pretty confident that it was for similar reasons to those of IPMS (UK) when we became a Limited Company in July 1996. Yes - Scale ModelWorld is also run by a Limited Company.

 

The reason we became a Ltd Co. is simple - financial liability. The cost of organising and running a major event in a commercial events venue is huge. If IPMS (UK) hadn't taken the decision to become a Ltd Co. 25 years ago, we would be taking a massive personal risk every year by running Scale ModelWorld. If you were a show organiser, responsible for an event of the financial magnitude of an SMW or a Warley Show, would you be prepared to bet your house every year on nothing going wrong? IPMS (UK) is in a good financial position these days and we can mitigate the financial risks involved in running SMW, but back in 1996 and even into the mid-noughties, we weren't.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, mick b said:

Hi John, when can we expect to see a list of traders attending on the website? 

 

Mike

End of September - we said we would publish an initial list then and add to it as more traders complete their bookings - we have more than 100 currently confirmed since 1st September. We also have over 100 IPMS Branches and SIGs who have confirmed their attendance for 2021, with more still coming in.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

perhaps you should investigate who Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd actually are? I don't know why Warley Model Railway Club chose to go the route of setting up a Ltd Co

Fully aware who they are and why they set up the Ltd Co. - to isolate the club from potential losses just like the IPMS. Doesn't make the NEC event a club show, but has curtailed opportunites for other local MR clubs to put on events.

 

4 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

On your point about how MR shows operate - in the model railway world, it has always been a tradition that the organising club pays the travel expenses of visiting clubs and exhibitors. It isn't new and it isn't the result of commercial interests getting involved.

Never claimed it to be new, or a result of the commercial interests getting involved. The organising club only loads the expenses into the table rents - something the traders on here may not have been aware of.

 

4 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

On you first point - yes the discussion is relevant to SMW but my point (which you seem to have missed entirely) is that the subject deserves a separate discussion because it relates to many shows, not just SMW. If it takes place within a thread that is just about SMW then the value of the discussion is going to get lost in the static - it needs a separate thread to do the topic justice and to ensure it doesn't 'disappear' after SMW 2021 is over.

Your point wasn't missed, I took your post to be a statement of intent to take this particular ball out of play and gave it one last kick to round the sub-topic up.

 

You've got your ball, I got my coat.

 

If the traders that have commented on here, @Duncan B@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies@Mike McCabe, want to start that seperate thread I'll be watching with interest.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the eighties when I had a brief spell on the committee, I am pretty sure it did. But the Nationals at (Stalag Luft) Stoneleigh were a much smaller affair compared to now. A look at the accounts which comes with the AGM stuff will give a clue. I am pretty sure a  chunk of the membership fee goes on the magazine, printing is not cheap. John, being a current EC member will know better. 

From that experience of the committee, going down the Ltd Company route made a lot of sense in terms of liability and also the running of IPMS. I remember in the eighties the sometimes heated discussions that went on over the society, which at that time some saw as having a 'superior' attitude towards the 'ordinary' modeller. I felt at the time some members may have had that attitude, which I don't think and hope is around anymore. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Jon Bryon said:

Doesn't any of my IPMS membership fee go towards SMW?

 

Jon

I suppose that depends on how you define 'goes towards SMW'.

In practical terms, no, the majority of your membership fee is soaked up by the cost of producing the Society magazine. That's long been a conscious decision on our part because we want the magazine to be a tangible and high quality benefit for members. It is also a draw for new members and has been a good marketing tool for us because of that. On the other hand, as a member you don't have to pay to get into SMW so that's one of a number of 'membership benefits' within your annual subscription.

 

The small profit from SMW (most years) allows us to cover off the other society costs - admin, insurance, operational costs, merchandise etc. It also means that we have a financial cushion built up over many years, so if something went seriously wrong with SMW, we would be able to cover our costs without bankrupting the Society - again, it has long been a conscious decision on our part to have that reserve in place.

 

As a member, you'll see our accounts published in the magazine and also within the AGM booklet issued each year, so you can explore how we use the membership income. Because we are also a Limited Company, our accounts are public domain, so anyone can view them.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/15/2021 at 1:11 PM, Duncan B said:

There will always be individuals that think all Traders are driving around in Bentleys and are making a huge profit every time they turn up at Shows, if they are then I haven't met them. 

I can assure anyone who thinks that traders are rich is labouring under a MAJOR misconception. I know from personal experience that model-traders often work on very narrow profit-margins indeed. This is magnified when you add in van-hire costs, fuel, hotels, food and so. 

 

Chris. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tbolt said:

Just in case anyone hasn't noticed the start of ticket sales have moved another week back to the 27th.

 

https://ipmsuk.org/ipms-scale-modelworld/

 

Yes it has - we are having a couple of technical issues with our ticketing portal. It's a full e-ticket system that we are using for the first time and we felt it was better to delay the launch for a week rather than go live with something that wasn't fully ready.The one advantage of the e-ticket process is that tickets are delivered immediately via email so we can continue selling them right up to SMW without worrying about tickets not arriving in time via the postal system. The tickets can either be printed off and presented hard-copy at the door, or presented electronically on your phone/smart device. On that basis we felt that the loss of a week was a marginal inconvenience in order to get the system operating properly.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, John Tapsell said:

 

Yes it has - we are having a couple of technical issues with our ticketing portal. It's a full e-ticket system that we are using for the first time and we felt it was better to delay the launch for a week rather than go live with something that wasn't fully ready.The one advantage of the e-ticket process is that tickets are delivered immediately via email so we can continue selling them right up to SMW without worrying about tickets not arriving in time via the postal system. The tickets can either be printed off and presented hard-copy at the door, or presented electronically on your phone/smart device. On that basis we felt that the loss of a week was a marginal inconvenience in order to get the system operating properly.

 

Good to know thanks. Will PayPal be one of the payment options?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...