Question about correct markings for Waldemar Wuebke's Bf 109E-3

[MarkoZG]

For a long time I have been searching for the information about correct markings for Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3 flown by Waldemar Wuebke.

This is the only photo of this machine that I am aware of and you can see that it doesn't show anything from the fuselage cross to the tail:

 

Result is that there are two interpretations of how this part of the fuselage looked like.

 

The one as done by Academy and some other decal manufacturers and profile draughtsmen which shows wavy bar in this area:

 

And the other without it:

 

Is there any other photo showing this area that would clear my doubts? Or any other argument that would point the right direction regarding this?

Thanks.

Edited August 31, 2021 by MarkoZG

[JackG]

Ignoring the artwork, the album of period photos found here         https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG54-III.html

show only one Emil during the BoB period with the wavy bar symbol, but note it does not display the leering devil emblem, which was introduced during the battle of France.

 

 

Since each staffel had it's own unique emblem, there would be no further need to include the third gruppe bar?

 

regards,

Jack

[stevehnz]

Certainly Yellow 13 with similar random stripes to yellow 11 shows the Devil badge but no wavy gruppe bar which would persuade me to do without it.

Steve.

[Hornet133]

According to Jochen Prien's 'Die Jagdfliegerverbande de Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945' Teil 4/II, JG54 did not use Gruppe Bars at all during the B.O.B. None of the photos of JG54 in the book carry Gruppe bars. This is probably due to the unit only having been formed in late June 1940 from three independent fighter Gruppen, III/JG 54 having previously been I/JG 21.

[fishplanebeer]

It seems a number of staffels in various JG's dispensed with the Gruppe symbol and instead displayed their bespoke staffel badge, the most well known perhaps being JG54. Certainly II Gruppe in JG54 did not use the Gruppe symbol which lead to RAF Intelligence believing that 'Red 14' from II/JG54 which crashed at Mays Farm on the 12th August was from I Gruppe as it carried no symbol (and was therefore from 2 staffel) whereas in fact it was a 5 staffel machine as confirmed by the pilot when he was interrogated.

 

The pic of 'yellow 5' is apparently a 9 staffel machine with the Gruppe symbol so would possibly have carried the leering devil emblem at some later point but not sure exactly when it was introduced. Confusingly III Gruppe also had its own Gruppe badge which is also seen on other III Gruppe aircraft at this time, plus each staffel within the Gruppe had their own staffel badges as well. So there seems to be no specific rule as to which badge/emblem III Gruppe machines carried as examples of both the staffel and Gruppe badge being carried can be found although I can't find any examples of both being present.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. Eric Mombeek's Battle of Britain - Phase One' shows a pic and colour plate of 'yellow 13' of 9/JG54 with the leering devil but no Gruppe symbol so my best guess would be to leave the Gruppe symbol off as it would be superfluous in terms of recognition given the presence of the 9 staffel badge.

[fishplanebeer]

Just to add that I know some staffels in JG2 and JG26 displayed both their Geshwader and staffel badges but I've never seen a Gruppe badge with anything else, although I'm not sure if such machines also had the Gruppe symbol as well. Logic would suggest not as there would be no point and the colour of the number would indicate the individual staffel but who knows?

 

Regards

Colin.

[Hornet133]

Yellow 5 as pictured above is from III/JG52 (they were the ones who used the oversize III Gruppe insignia) not JG54.

 

The airframe is pictured after an incident at Coquelles on 28 Jul 1940.  Ref:  'Die Jagdfliegerverbande de Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945' Teil 4/II P.167.

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

I think the confusion with yellow 5 has arisen due to the fact that it doesn't appear to carry any Gruppe or Geshwader badge and the style of cross hatched mottling is most often seen and associated with JG54. However I have a pic of yellow 10 of JG52 which also has the enlarged Gruppe symbol and number which I believe is associated with this JG so the absence of the leering devil badge now makes sense. Plus there is a correctly captioned version of the yellow 5 picture in the Wingleader book covering JG52.

 

Just wonder why III/JG52 chose not to have the Gruppe badge on the nose as this makes it difficult to identify which JG their aircraft are from. That said JG52 seem to be slightly different from the norm in that their II Gruppe aircraft didn't carry any Gruppe symbol which lead to some of their captured aircraft being incorrectly identified as being from I Gruppe. However II Gruppe aircraft did carry a staffel badge which helps with positive identification.

 

Regards

Colin.

[MarkoZG]

Thank you all for your contribution. It seems there is a common agreement that there was no marking between the fuselage cross and tail.

To be honest, I didn't expect such a consensus about it so it makes me wonder what gave the idea to some of the authors about presence of such insignia?

[JackG]

Probably due to misidentified photos.   The yellow 5 photo I had posted from the Asisbiz site link has been corrected by Hornet133, including the source.  

 

So quite likely the other photo from Asisbiz page dedicated to III/JG54,  has incorrectly identified a yellow 10 (perhaps the same one Colin referred to?) as Bf 109E1 9.JG54 Yellow 10 landing accident Germany 1940 02.   This cannot be since the third gruppe only came into being in July.

 

 

regards,

Jack