Jump to content

HMS Indomitable early 1942


Vlad

Recommended Posts

I have started a build of HMS Indomitable with the aim of completing her in an Eastern Fleet (March-April 1942) fit. I've trawled the Armoured Carriers website and there are good pictures and information there, but I still have a few questions 🙂

 

spacer.png

 

Firstly, camouflage. Are the colours called out in the above camouflage profile still considered correct? Unfortunately I only have this poor quality scan not a hard copy of the book, and while I am cross-referencing pictures, I am struggling to tell where the B6 is used especially on the starboard side. Some pictures also seem to show a camouflage pattern on the flight deck, but not very clearly and it could be something else. Is there any more information on this?

 

Secondly, light AA fit. I can see tubs for two 20mm Oerlikons either side of the stern. I assume there are more in other places but none of the pictures I have are clear enough to determine where they are.

 

Finally, is the stern round-down already flattened out by this point? It's very hard to tell with the aforementioned Oerlikon tubs blocking the view of this area from the side.

 

Thank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Vlad said:

I have started a build of HMS Indomitable with the aim of completing her in an Eastern Fleet (March-April 1942) fit. I've trawled the Armoured Carriers website and there are good pictures and information there, but I still have a few questions 🙂

 

spacer.png

 

Firstly, camouflage. Are the colours called out in the above camouflage profile still considered correct? Unfortunately I only have this poor quality scan not a hard copy of the book, and while I am cross-referencing pictures, I am struggling to tell where the B6 is used especially on the starboard side. Some pictures also seem to show a camouflage pattern on the flight deck, but not very clearly and it could be something else. Is there any more information on this?

 

Secondly, light AA fit. I can see tubs for two 20mm Oerlikons either side of the stern. I assume there are more in other places but none of the pictures I have are clear enough to determine where they are.

 

Finally, is the stern round-down already flattened out by this point? It's very hard to tell with the aforementioned Oerlikon tubs blocking the view of this area from the side.

 

Thank you!

Indomitable’s light AA on completion consisted of 48x2pdr (6x8) and 8 single 20mm Oerlikon and AFAIK was not changed until she was repaired after Operation Pedestal in Aug 1942.

 

As for the locations of the 20mm the only ones I can be certain of are the 4 around the stern. Other possible locations that I can’t confirm would be

 

Starboard side of island at forward end.

Starboard side of funnel possibly 2

On aft end of funnel port side

 

 

There are some good photos on Maritime Quest that will help you with the aft end of her flight deck

https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/aircraft_carriers/hms_indomitable_92.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's hard to work out what's deliberately painted and what's just inadvertent patchiness on the photographs I have of this scheme.

 

Something feels off about the colours named - it's from Alan Raven's Warship Perspectives Vol.1 1930-1941 book. I'm ok with the 507A although it looks darker than I'm used to and I feel it may possibly be MS2 instead. It's the B6 and MS4A I have a discomfort with. On the 3 photos I have the tones are fairly close between whatever those two paints are. Given the Raven - Snyder & Short connection and that Snyder & Short, wherever their samples really came from, had B6 at between 33% and 43% RF depending on which sample you choose, but also had MS4A at 45.6% RF I feel the pairing of B6 and MS4A in Raven's book makes much more sense if your idea of both of those colours' tones is offset towards the other. When B6 is corrected to 30% RF and MS4A corrected to 55% RF (both figures as stated in contemporary report RE/CAM/30/1/1) it doesn't hang together so well. B6 and 507C might harmonise better together when compared to the photographs. I don't think white is there on the port side of the island as Raven shows. I'd appreciate @dickrd's thoughts on all of this.

 

I'd need to draw the scheme up to play with the colours a bit, but I won't have time to do that until October earliest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, EwenS said:

Indomitable’s light AA on completion consisted of 48x2pdr (6x8) and 8 single 20mm Oerlikon and AFAIK was not changed until she was repaired after Operation Pedestal in Aug 1942.

 

As for the locations of the 20mm the only ones I can be certain of are the 4 around the stern. Other possible locations that I can’t confirm would be

 

Starboard side of island at forward end.

Starboard side of funnel possibly 2

On aft end of funnel port side

 

 

There are some good photos on Maritime Quest that will help you with the aft end of her flight deck

https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/aircraft_carriers/hms_indomitable_92.htm

 

Thank you, this is very helpful regarding the 20mm.

 

The placement you describe is confirmed by this drawing (that I failed to examine closely enough before):

 

spacer.png

 

For the round-down, I looked at those pictures and it seems to my eye there is more round-down when she is at Norfolk, Virginia than in the ovearhead shots taken in 1942, but there shouldn't have been any work carried out between those shots. That's what confused me. Was she completed with less round-down than the first 3?

 

 

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies your input on this is much appreciated. If you are suspicious, then I was definitely right to question the Raven profile 🙂 I'm nowhere near the painting stage, but I'll bear in mind that the lightest colour may be 507C. Pure speculation here, but the wavy-splotchy style and low contrast of Indomitable's scheme reminds me of Prince of Wales. Could Indomitable be using 4 out of 5 of PoWs colours (missing either MS.1 or 507A depending on how dark you think the darkest colour is)?

Edited by Vlad
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

AFAIK she was completed as seen in those photos at Norfolk. So less round down than the first 3. Just one of the many changes in her design.

 

She did not complete until Oct 1941 when she sailed for the Caribbean where she ran aground on 3rd Nov. 1941. The time in Norfolk was to fix that damage. It was arranged at short notice and lasted only 11 days. So no time for other structural work to be planned and implemented. Then it was off to the Indian Ocean by the end of the year.

 

When ferrying Hurricanes in Jan/Mar 1942, there is a photo of her with 23 Hurricanes on the flight deck with only one row in front of the after directors. So there can have been no long round down, otherwise that would have been impossible.

 

Her next dockyard time was 6-7 weeks in May-July 1942 for engine repairs at Kilindini, but facilities there were limited at the time. After that it was off to the Med for Pedestal.

 

One thing I have noticed from studying those ships over the years is that it is often difficult to tell exactly what the length of the after round down was at any point in time due to the angles in the photos. Victorious had her aft flight deck rebuilt at Norfolk at the beginning of 1943 before leaving for the Pacific.

 

Which kit are you using for your build?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, EwenS said:

Which kit are you using for your build?

 

Thank you for the additional information! I'm using Aoshima's new 1/700 Victorious kit, so I have my work cut out for me (literally!), hence the information gathering. Round-down is just another thing I need to chop and rebuild now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Vlad said:

 

Thank you for the additional information! I'm using Aoshima's new 1/700 Victorious kit, so I have my work cut out for me (literally!), hence the information gathering. Round-down is just another thing I need to chop and rebuild now.

OMG that is quite a task you have set yourself. Not sure how much plastic you are left with once you lift the FD and move all the gun bays, before getting to the finer stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/30/2021 at 2:50 PM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I'd appreciate @dickrd's thoughts on all of this.

 

 

 

A tricky one!  My photos are not the best either. I think that I see five tones in this scheme and no white on her island. The lightest tone might have been white at the bow and stern on delivery from her builders but if so that at the stern had definitely been changed to something a bit darker by the time of photos taken of her leaving Norfolk NY, November 1941. I think that I would go with an overall slightly darker palette, with MS1 at the dark end of the scale and 507C at the light end (or if retaining white at the bow that would be a 6th tone).    

 

A number of my photos show patterning on the flight deck.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, dickrd said:

 

A tricky one!  My photos are not the best either. I think that I see five tones in this scheme and no white on her island. The lightest tone might have been white at the bow and stern on delivery from her builders but if so that at the stern had definitely been changed to something a bit darker by the time of photos taken of her leaving Norfolk NY, November 1941. I think that I would go with an overall slightly darker palette, with MS1 at the dark end of the scale and 507C at the light end (or if retaining white at the bow that would be a 6th tone).    

 

A number of my photos show patterning on the flight deck.

 

In this case, would the middle three colours be 507A, B5 and B6 as per the Raven profile? Or could one (or both) of the Bs be an MS instead?

Edited by Vlad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for those @iang. The increasing number of these is changing my perception a bit more. These two photographs give a startlingly different impression of the tones.

 

658c1178-dc7f-4622-afd3-52684b13aa14.png

 

That stern is incredibly light in the left hand photograph. Interestingly, the paint looks much newer and fresher in your photograph to the left, Ian, compared to the chalked and faded appearance right.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jamie,

 

I think the difference is panchromatic versus orthochromatic film or the application of red/orange/yellow filters to pan film.  Orthochromatic films were the most common in WW2 and yellow, orange or red filters were (and still are) a standard tool used in black and white photography to increase the contrast of blues on panchromatic film  (or to make skin tones more flattering).  The same difference between image types is evident in the port side photos I posted earlier.

 

Notice that in the photo showing the flight-deck with a Sea Hurricane aft, the fin flash and wing roundels show a relatively light red portion and quite a dark blue portion. So definitely not orthochromatic film (which darkens reds and yellows and lightens blue). It is likely the outcome of a red, orange or yellow filter on panchromatic film (which lighten reds and darken blues). The red of the fuselage roundel on Sea Hurricane 7Z is rendered almost white, so the image was taken with a lens mounted filter in my view.

 

IG

Edited by iang
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, iang said:

Notice that in the photo showing the flight-deck with a Sea Hurricane aft,

Is that a carry on of the camouflage pattern onto the deck as well?   I noticed that got up the thread as well.

 

And a request,  be really handy for the less informed reader (what me?)  that the RN navy colours have a basic description added,  507A [dark grey?] 507C [light grey?]  but I'd have to look up B6 and MS4A,   or is this not done as they are just known as  B6 and MS4A etc and adding colour names, even lower case as descriptions, would just cause confusion? 

My interest in this is casual,  but I have noted some very in depth discussion on here by various members,  which I read as it's obviously not cobblers....

 

And answers questions I didn't even know to ask.... 

 

cheers

T

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indomitable cf a

 

 

Indomitable 1941 11 21 Norfolk USA a - Copy

 

Accepting that different types of film and filters can complicate things when comparing between different photos, the direct comparison Jamie has posted strengthens my suspicion that things changed between September 1941 and leaving Norfolk NY late 1941 and that Indomitable may originally have had areas of white at bow and stern. The lefthand photo is I think a delivery/trials photo: Indomitable is riding high in the water, flying no ensign and has yet to have radar aerials fitted to her main director (or they have been censored). The righthand photo was taken on completion of repairs at Norfolk NY. In the lefthand photo area A is clearly lighter than areas B; in the righthand image they are the same sort of tone. In the lefthand photo there is one large light area C at the bow, again lighter than B,; it he righthand photo area C is now the same tone as area B but a small area, D, of lightness remains. This can be more clearly seen in my second attached photo, again taken at Norfolk NY.     

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Is that a carry on of the camouflage pattern onto the deck as well?   I noticed that got up the thread as well.

 

And a request,  be really handy for the less informed reader (what me?)  that the RN navy colours have a basic description added,  507A [dark grey?] 507C [light grey?]  but I'd have to look up B6 and MS4A,   or is this not done as they are just known as  B6 and MS4A etc and adding colour names, even lower case as descriptions, would just cause confusion? 

My interest in this is casual,  but I have noted some very in depth discussion on here by various members,  which I read as it's obviously not cobblers....

 

And answers questions I didn't even know to ask.... 

 

cheers

T

 

I don't think it would cause confusion but it would be very much more laborious to do so. Based on our research, Jamie has written a very handy guide to all the RN paints and it is available on his website at Sovereign Hobbies/Colour Schemes/Royal Navy - A Brief History of Paints where they are all described and illustrated.

 

Edited by dickrd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@iang thank you very much for all the photos, most of these I have not seen before. That's excellent combined reference for the camouflage, but it will take some time to digest it.

 

@dickrd I concur that something changed. Note where the line ends from your C annotation on both photos, the pattern has clearly changed around the aft-most bow side opening. I also can't really see 5 colours in the post-Norfolk refit photos. It seems to me that the lightest areas were overpainted with whatever the second lightest colour is to go from a 5 colour scheme to 4.

 

@Troy Smith this may be the most concise reference: https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-periodic-table-of-paints

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Vlad said:

 

 

@dickrd I concur that something changed. Note where the line ends from your C annotation on both photos, the pattern has clearly changed around the aft-most bow side opening. I also can't really see 5 colours in the post-Norfolk refit photos. It seems to me that the lightest areas were overpainted with whatever the second lightest colour is to go from a 5 colour scheme to 4.

 

I agree with your assessment that there are 4 colours - possibly 5 if Dick is right about white on the stern and bow sections, though the 5 colour scheme seems to be very short lived. About 15 years ago I went through the Ships' Logs for Indomitable, which gives the dates for 'painting ship'. If I get a chance, I'll try and find my notes over the weekend.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, having found my notes from Indomitable's logs, they only start in March 1942.  Repainting into the second disruptive pattern was at Kilindini  26 May => 30 May ( I have some quite good photographs taken from Illustrious soon after this), and no painting prior to this in March, April or May.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...