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Colour of Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-4 wheels - AND NOSE!?


Johnson

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Hi Folks,

 

I'm building this 1940 JG 27 Bf 109E-4 using the 1/72 Airfix kit.

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-Stab-I.JG27-Gunth

 

The wheels look like they were painted either RLM70 Schwarzgrun or black, hard to say from this B&W photo. Any opinions on the correct colour?

 

Many thanks,

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Johnson said:

Any opinions on the correct colour?

 

RLM 22 gloss black.  Standard for all Luftwaffe wheel hubs.  I emphasise the gloss bit as the reflections can make them look lighter. 

43532930665_974f5cbdf2_c.jpgMe Bf 109 JEC 00519 by Jeffrey Ethell Collection, on Flickr

 

12+Messerschmitt+Bf+109+fighter+gunboat+

 

 

3692edf3cab247a0088ab497f4404c58.jpg

 

 

6ba9db57619c6614714efba9757b9662--ww-pho

 

Note the tyres are a dark grey as well.

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The wheel hubs of many Luftwaffe aircraft were manufactured using a magnesium alloy which went by the trademark  name of 'Elektron.' Being magnesium, they were painted with a semi-gloss  black lacquer to prevent corrosion.  BTW, the process of making the magnesium alloy was originally developed by a British company!

Mike

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56 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

The wheel hubs of many Luftwaffe aircraft were manufactured using a magnesium alloy which went by the trademark  name of 'Elektron.' Being magnesium, they were painted with a semi-gloss  black lacquer to prevent corrosion.  BTW, the process of making the magnesium alloy was originally developed by a British company!

Mike

There was a lot of cross-pollination between the British and German aviation industries between the wars. And they both used NACA reports from the US.

Funny you mention corrosion and magnesium. Back in the 80s or 90s, the USAF was running short of mainwheels for its F-4 fleet. The magnesium elements of the wheels in use and in reserve were corroding and the wheels were becoming unserviceable. The service was looking for a vendor to manufacture more wheels, but in the meantime, instead of receiving a built-up wheel and tire at the tire shop when doing a change, the old tire was dismounted. The wheel was then inspected for serviceability, and if it was good, a new tire was mounted and balanced before reissue back to flightline maintenance. A 30-minute process became an hour or more.

Edited by Rolls-Royce
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36 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

The wheel hubs of many Luftwaffe aircraft were manufactured using a magnesium alloy which went by the trademark  name of 'Elektron.' Being magnesium, they were painted with a semi-gloss  black lacquer to prevent corrosion.  BTW, the process of making the magnesium alloy was originally developed by a British company!

Mike

 

Magnesium Elektron Ltd - a joint venture between ICI (UK) and IG Farben (Germany) in 1935.  Still around today - and still based in Manchester, where they were originally incorporated - now known as Luxfer MEL Technologies :) ( used to have dealings with them many years ago)

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What's interesting about this particular aircraft is that it is always shown with a yellow nose but with the camo colours retained on top which I've always thought of as rather odd. If the Germans applied the yellow noses to aid recognition it seems strange that they would then retain the camo as it would rather defeat the object of painting the nose yellow in the first place.

 

In the photo the nose appears to be the same colour as the RLM65 fuselage just around the intake area so could it be that the actual nose wasn't yellow after all?

 

Just a thought.

 

Regards

Colin.

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Sorry, the only reason I mention this is that for ages people thought the Von Werra machine had a white nose with the camo retained but it turned out the cowling was RLM65 after all so could this be another case of colour misinterpretation perhaps? Unfortunately I don't have access to the official crash report so this may be more definitive in terms of the actual colour of the nose.

 

Regards

Colin.

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10 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

The rarish Bf 109 L (for left handed pilots and ground crew)!  😍

As a leftie, I endorse this take :D

--

Interesting intake colour though. Protective coating or primer? 

I'm sure there was a thread somewhere mentioning this before (albeit from the imho misguided perspective of it being heat resistant and conveniently ignoring the shielding plate above the exhaust stacks)

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I am always astounded at how grubby these aircraft became, especially it seems, the Gustavs.  Such harsh conditions...different types of smoke, dust, snow, rain...

It's a good reminder to make them grubby looking...more fun too, I suppose, unless they are factory fresh!

 

Oh yes...I agree.  Black.😄

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1 minute ago, John Masters said:

It's a good reminder to make them grubby looking...more fun too, I suppose, unless they are factory fresh!

Or Swiss. I heard they kept them rather clean as well :)

 

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7 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

rather clean

Didn't some of the earlier Dora and Emil aircraft have diesel engines?  That would cause quite a sooty mess, I would think.  At least it did on my father's VW Rabbit!

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8 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

As a leftie, I endorse this take :D

--

Interesting intake colour though. Protective coating or primer? 

I'm sure there was a thread somewhere mentioning this before (albeit from the imho misguided perspective of it being heat resistant and conveniently ignoring the shielding plate above the exhaust stacks)

Yes, we talked about this strange medium blue on the intake before - even without hitting each other and arguing about the right blue! (the right blue still is kinda unsolved)

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3 hours ago, Rolls-Royce said:

The magnesium elements of the wheels in use and in reserve were corroding

Wonder if this was caused by galvanic corrosion due to a  magnesium hub being bolted to an aluminum gear strut? Thanks for the interesting story, BTW.

Mike

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Hi Colin,

 

1 hour ago, fishplanebeer said:

Sorry, the only reason I mention this is that for ages people thought the Von Werra machine had a white nose with the camo retained but it turned out the cowling was RLM65 after all so could this be another case of colour misinterpretation perhaps? Unfortunately I don't have access to the official crash report so this may be more definitive in terms of the actual colour of the nose.

 

When I started the kit, with this plane in mind, I wondered the same, was the nose actually just RLM 65?

 

But quite by chance, looking for other details about the crash, I came across this which, according to the source, is the actual crash report;

 

y4mSO0PB6UN_jTn0BwfMXsW1yfqMWKxMOk2ENQv6

 

Made me feel better about painting the nose yellow!

 

It also mentions no head armour in the cockpit which is very useful.

 

Cheers,

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Charlie,

 

Thanks for that, so not another Von Werra oversight after all, though still puzzled as to why they did this as the camo just makes the nose less yellow and obvious which was sort of why they made them yellow in the first place, plus for me it just looks wrong. Every other pic I have of JG27 during this period shows either no yellow nose (early part of the Battle) or the nose completely yellow so this must have been a bit of a one off for them. Perhaps the pilot wasn't that keen on being too visible!

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. strange that not all Bf109E's at this time appeared to have part of the intake as blue but who knows why

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10 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

Or was it just the lower nose cowling in yellow?

 

No, no Peter. I don't think that could possibly have been the case!!! :wicked:

 

y4mJa0ct0_0OoAq3O630K4mlZaLhwbBZ8TrEbF6y

 

Er... it's a good point. The crash report doesn't actually say which bit of the nose.

 

Here are another couple of photos of the same plane taken in France. The first one, the lower section of the nose does look perceptibly darker and may be yellow. the second one has less difference. But what is evident is that there is little. if any, tonal difference between the side of the engine cowling and the side of the rest of the fuselage.

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-Stab-I.JG27-Gunth

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-Stab-I.JG27-Gunth

 

But when did the Luftwaffe/RLM start painting the lower section of the nose yellow? Was it during the BoB?

 

Cheers,

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  • Johnson changed the title to Colour of Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-4 wheels - AND NOSE!?
17 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Wonder if this was caused by galvanic corrosion due to a  magnesium hub being bolted to an aluminum gear strut? Thanks for the interesting story, BTW.

Mike

Mostly due to age, methinks, and wear on whatever protective coating had been applied to the magnesium at the time of manufacture. There were no new wheels in the supply system as the USAF was then engaged in phasing out the F-4 in favor of the F-16, and I don't think anyone had anticipated such an attrition rate that late in the aircraft's service life. There were similar shortages on the F-16 when I was in Korea in the mid-80s, but then it was because certain parts were failing unexpectedly and all such new parts were at the time going to the production line.

Edited by Rolls-Royce
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4 hours ago, Johnson said:

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-Stab-I.JG27-Gunth

 

But when did the Luftwaffe/RLM start painting the lower section of the nose yellow? Was it during the BoB?

 

Cheers,

I think I could be convinced that the cowl and fuselage are similar, but different tones of grey in this picture above.

Look closely at the vertical panel line behind the air filter - could be two distinct greys - hence perhaps yellow cowl with camo on the top (sort of an early anti-glare panel? ;), with blue 65 painted on the panel behind?

 

SD 

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My only other observation now is that the line between the camo and the yellow on the nose is very precise and exactly matches the demarcation line before it, and the contour of the camo shows no sign of any minor variation or the slightest step so who ever applied the yellow must have had a very steady hand and been a stickler for detail.

 

I must say that the idea that part of the nose was yellow (not specified in the crash report) would seem to make more sense on this basis but it's only my guess based upon the distinction of grey tonal values from the b&w photos and this is always very subjective.

 

Regards

Colin.

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