Random P-47 Questions

[11bravo]

Thank you so much for all the information.    Could I trouble you for one last question?  The flaps in the lowered position are suspended from the wing by three pretty prominent metal linkages.    Does anyone have suggestions on what color these linkages would be?   I'm leaning towards Neutral Grey but really have no evidence to base this on.    Again, any info is greatly appreciated. 

 

Regards,

 

John

[72modeler]

7 minutes ago, 11bravo said:

Thank you so much for all the information.    Could I trouble you for one last question?  The flaps in the lowered position are suspended from the wing by three pretty prominent metal linkages.    Does anyone have suggestions on what color these linkages would be?   I'm leaning towards Neutral Grey but really have no evidence to base this on.    Again, any info is greatly appreciated. 

 

Regards,

 

John

Whoo boy, I'm not going to open up that can! I can't ever recall seeing any color photos, either period or modern, of an original unrestored P-47 that show how the flap coves, linkage, and fairing plates were finished. @Tbolt  or another regular with photos or reference material might be your best bet. There are a couple of unrestored P-47's on display, but I don't recall seeing any photos of them with  deployed flaps. Just a guess on my part, but pretty sure the flat plates that were attached to the linkage that covered them when the flaps were retracted were painted the same color as the surrounding surface; also guessing the linkage was either zinc chromate yellow or the same color as the surrounding area, as were the flap coves. Best I can do from the references I have, but would also like to know, as I have two Jug projects that I want to do with dropped flaps, and I have no idea what colors are correct. I don't have either of the 1/48 Tamiya kits, but maybe somebody who has either of them could tell you what the painting guide on the instructions states.

Mike

[greatgonzo]

E&M is not quite clear about that. My opinion is hinges were primed with ZCY. It seems (well, almost for sure) wings were painted fully assembled, less ailerons and flaps, meaning the colour of the under surfaces was sprayed on the hinges too. With NMF aircraft, I would say the hinges were sprayed a coat of silver paint or anodised.

Lot of 'seems' and opinions here, I am afraid, but the pics of D-4 taken out of New Guinea jungle seem (again ) to get along with this idea.

Edited August 31, 2021 by greatgonzo

[Tbolt]

2 hours ago, greatgonzo said:

E&M is not quite clear about that. My opinion is hinges were primed with ZCY. It seems (well, almost for sure) wings were painted fully assembled, less ailerons and flaps, meaning the colour of the under surfaces was sprayed on the hinges too. With NMF aircraft, I would say the hinges were sprayed a coat of silver paint or anodised.

Lot of 'seems' and opinions here, I am afraid, but the pics of D-4 taken out of New Guinea jungle seem (again ) to get along with this idea.

 

I Love how you say "my opinion" and "I would say" and then go on to say there's a lot of 'seems' and opinions here!

 

Don't get me wrong I think your opinion about the finishes of the linkages is the same as mine as that's what I paint them, but using a D-4 as an example doesn't tell us for sure how a factory painted D-30 was necessarily painted. It's just another 'seems', which is how most of this works with limited info.

 

If you compare the earlier EMI's with the later ones you will see that the requirement was to use less primer on the aircraft, so it's hard to be sure about some things on later aircraft when comparing them with earlier ones. It probably wouldn't have made a difference to the flap linkages but unless we see a FAB P-47 from around that time we are just guessing.

 

Reference the wings being painted without the ailerons and flaps, what info do you have on that?

 

From this picture anyway it looks to me like the flaps have been painted separately and installed and going by the aileron area on the wing in the foreground which has been painted, it gives me the impression that  they probably also paint the flap area on the wing before installing the flaps.

 

So then I would have though the wing is painted with the flaps fitted rather than removing them again?

 

 

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora:216603/datastream/IMAGE/view

 

 

[Tbolt]

15 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Whoo boy, I'm not going to open up that can! I can't ever recall seeing any color photos, either period or modern, of an original unrestored P-47 that show how the flap coves, linkage, and fairing plates were finished. @Tbolt  or another regular with photos or reference material might be your best bet. There are a couple of unrestored P-47's on display, but I don't recall seeing any photos of them with  deployed flaps. Just a guess on my part, but pretty sure the flat plates that were attached to the linkage that covered them when the flaps were retracted were painted the same color as the surrounding surface; also guessing the linkage was either zinc chromate yellow or the same color as the surrounding area, as were the flap coves. Best I can do from the references I have, but would also like to know, as I have two Jug projects that I want to do with dropped flaps, and I have no idea what colors are correct. I don't have either of the 1/48 Tamiya kits, but maybe somebody who has either of them could tell you what the painting guide on the instructions states.

Mike

 

Tamiya do not mention any colour specifically for the flap linkages. I've always gone for NG or NMF personally but that's just a 'guess' 😉

[greatgonzo]

When I wrote -there's a lot 'seems' and opinions- I meant my post only and I was trying to sound apologising.

 

4 hours ago, Tbolt said:

Reference the wings being painted without the ailerons and flaps, what info do you have on that?

I could rewrite the next paragraph  of Your post word for ward answering this question. Just having ideas from pic You've posted and alike.

Yet, this picture of Yours alone clearly defines the process. In my opinion :).

 

Of course You are right mentioning the priming being less used later on. Then it came back a little when reports from the front arrived mentioning increasing corrosion problems. I am talking general here, not pointing specific P-47 instructions. As I said, with later, not camouflaged P-47s I would go for elements primed and over sprayed with silver paint or just anodised. For Lend Lease birds I would circle back to the beginning with ZC primer and camouflage colour on top. But these wouldn't even be opinions. More like guesses I'd say.

Edited August 31, 2021 by greatgonzo

[Tbolt]

54 minutes ago, greatgonzo said:

When I wrote -there's a lot 'seems' and opinions- I meant my post only and I was trying to sound apologising.

 

I could rewrite the next paragraph  of Your post word for ward answering this question. Just having ideas from pic You've posted and alike.

Yet, this picture of Yours alone clearly defines the process. In my opinion :).

 

Of course You are right mentioning the priming being less used later on. Then it came back a little when reports from the front arrived mentioning increasing corrosion problems. I am talking general here, not pointing specific P-47 instructions. As I said, with later, not camouflaged P-47s I would go for elements primed and over sprayed with silver paint or just anodised. For Lend Lease birds I would circle back to the beginning with ZC primer and camouflage colour on top. But these wouldn't even be opinions. More like guesses I'd say.

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, sorry I didn’t get that at first.
 

Like I said that picture looks like painted flaps fitted on unpainted wings to me, but without some more pictures we will never know what they actually did.

[greatgonzo]

Ah, here we are, I didn't get that!

You mean we have NMF wings with painted flaps fitted in the picture?

I would say the wings are painted. And  it doesn't make sense to me fitting painted flaps, then removing them to paint the wings and fitting them again. I don't know for sure, of course, but what could have been gained by such a strange procedure?

 

Now, I made a trick I usually perform when in doubt. I looked at at the picture forgetting my first impression and and trying to see the opposite idea. 9 of 10 times in these occasions I am able to see it, this opposite one. No surprise I did see it this time too... .

[Tbolt]

21 hours ago, greatgonzo said:

Ah, here we are, I didn't get that!

You mean we have NMF wings with painted flaps fitted in the picture?

I would say the wings are painted. And  it doesn't make sense to me fitting painted flaps, then removing them to paint the wings and fitting them again. I don't know for sure, of course, but what could have been gained by such a strange procedure?

 

Now, I made a trick I usually perform when in doubt. I looked at at the picture forgetting my first impression and and trying to see the opposite idea. 9 of 10 times in these occasions I am able to see it, this opposite one. No surprise I did see it this time too... .

 

You might want to have another look then 😉 To me the wings are unpainted because you can see the rivets, look just forward of the flap and the gear door, you can see the rivet heads. You can't see any on the flap. So yes I believe the flap is painted, though it could just be ZC primer, though it looks darker than that, but we don't know what film/filters were used.

 

Also with the wing on the left you can see the river head except where the aileron area has been painted.

 

Like I said if the flaps are already painted then I would have thought they would leave them in place when they painted the wings, why remove them?

 

 You could argue that the skin were primed before assembly, but I didn't think that was done back then on military aircraft, but even if it was the flap and aileron area being darker would then be NG.

[greatgonzo]

As said, I can see both versions and I could argue for both. Which clearly shows I know sh... .