Did the Walrus (Seagull V) Mk I - A2-18 RAAF yellow paint scheme exist?

[FranckH]

Good afternoon

 

I would like to build a Pacific War Walrus and have found the following decal set which would suggest a military "yellow" version existed in 1940 (the one in the middle).

 

 

I have found a number of publications on the Walruses, including an operational history of A2-18, but so far everything suggests that the yellow colour was added in 1947 when 4 of these birds were converted for Arctic usage / whaling

e.g. Hamiltonian's beautiful Revell 1/72 Walrus: Whale-spotting in the Southern Ocean

 

Was there ever a yellow RAAF Walrus/Seagull V during the Pacific war and if yes where can I find evidence / pictures of it? One can suppose H-Models didn't invent it out of the blue ...

 

Many thanks!

 

F.

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by FranckH

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

For the specific serial A2-18 see http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a2.htm  It was damaged in September 1941 and ended up at an RAF depot, never to return to RAAF control.

 

The RAAF started the war with 21 Seagull V, out of the 24 ordered from 1934 (ordered in batches of 6, 6 and 12).  I do not have specific evidence ruling out all yellow paint schemes in 1940 but there is no evidence the RAAF was using all yellow that year even for trainers.  Also the reality is the Seagulls were considered front line aircraft until 1942 or later and the RAAF was short of them, requiring 5 for the RAN cruisers, plus the newly commissioned merchant cruisers, keeping 9 squadron at full strength (including the aircraft on the cruisers) to have a ready reserve and for training, plus the need for maintenance and attrition reserves.  It was able to secure 2 Walrus from RAF Singapore in 1940 and ordered another 6 in 1941, receiving them in 1942.

[Ed Russell]

7 hours ago, FranckH said:

One can suppose H-Models didn't invent it out of the blue

Yes they did - Schemes 1 and 2 are fictitious. Scheme 3 is your only option for a yellow Walrus. If you paint Scheme 3 overall Aluminium dope, then the decals are usable, although the large 18 is a bit out of shape.

I have sent you a mini-review of this two decal set.

There are better WW2 Seagull/Walrus decal sheets about.....

https://www.redroomodels.com/product/seagull-v-walrus-1-72/

and also available in 1/48 for the Airfix kit.

 

[FranckH]

Thank you so much Ed, for this and for the detailed review.

 

I have the SMER 1/48 kit (1958 tooling, damaged decals) to which I've added the Eduard Big-Ed PE and their Brassin wheels. The decal set and position lights are in the mail.

I fell in love with the idea of a bright yellow maritime rescue but became increasingly suspicious when everything I've been reading was suggesting all the Walruses were operated from ships.

No one in their sane mind would paint such a bright target on a warship or cargo. And A2-18's life is quite well documented.

<sigh>

Now I either need to switch to a correct war camo or aluminium dope (not fun, I've done the Spirit of St Louis already) with correct decals if I want to stick with it or abandon ship altogether and select another one for this theme.

 

Thanks again!

 

F.

[Ed Russell]

59 minutes ago, FranckH said:

a correct war camo

Plenty of options here, including 4 camouflaged ones ........

https://www.redroomodels.com/product/seagull-v-walrus-1-48/

The only downside is that you might end up having to buy a couple of Airfix kits to get full value out of the decals!

[LDSModeller]

9 hours ago, FranckH said:

I would like to build a Pacific War Walrus and have found the following decal set

 

Hi Franck,

 

Slightly OT - FYI for you (other modellers) if you want a Pacific Walrus?

Re The decal profiles above The RNZAF profile, whilst NZ151 did exist, the profile

should not be taken at face value (i.e no black undersides)

 

NZ151 was formerly the "Reserve" Walrus for HMS Leander L2222 - P9A as seen

here at RNZAF Station Hobsonville

?

(RNZAF Official - RNZAF Museum - Used with Permissions)

 

NZ151 over Auckland somewhere (noting the harbour below) - the shadow gives the impression that

the lower planning hull is black - at time of Photos, Seaplane Training Flight at Hobsonville

(RNZAF Official - RNZAF Museum - Used with Permissions)

 

Note NZ151 again on the hard at Hobsonville - note the lower planning hull/wings/tailplane are not black

(a bit of trivia - I have walked that area many a time (even when flying boats were there), what you can't see are the tie downs

embedded into the concrete to tie down the aircraft parked there)

(RNZAF Official - RNZAF Museum - Used with Permissions)

 

The last Photo with wing/hull touch ups always a modelling possibility

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

[Magpie22]

16 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

For the specific serial A2-18 see http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a2.htm  It was damaged in September 1941 and ended up at an RAF depot, never to return to RAAF control.

 

The RAAF started the war with 21 Seagull V, out of the 24 ordered from 1934 (ordered in batches of 6, 6 and 12).  I do not have specific evidence ruling out all yellow paint schemes in 1940 but there is no evidence the RAAF was using all yellow that year even for trainers.  Also the reality is the Seagulls were considered front line aircraft until 1942 or later and the RAAF was short of them, requiring 5 for the RAN cruisers, plus the newly commissioned merchant cruisers, keeping 9 squadron at full strength (including the aircraft on the cruisers) to have a ready reserve and for training, plus the need for maintenance and attrition reserves.  It was able to secure 2 Walrus from RAF Singapore in 1940 and ordered another 6 in 1941, receiving them in 1942.

Hi Geoffrey,

 

Agree with you re A2-18 - it never served in the Pacific war, and certainly was never overall Yellow.

 

Slightly incorrect re Yellow for trainers. An RAAF Minute dated 4 January 1940 ammended AGI C.11 and AGI F.1 to introduce overall K3/185 Yellow for elementary training aircraft. This was only for elementary trainers and did not apply to other types, certainly not for Seagull/Walrus. There was also an interim scheme that allowed for Yellow bands to be applied to existing elementary trainers finished in overall V.84 Aluminium.

 

Cheers,

Peter M

[Magpie22]

19 hours ago, FranckH said:

Good afternoon

 

I would like to build a Pacific War Walrus and have found the following decal set which would suggest a military "yellow" version existed in 1940 (the one in the middle).

 

I have found a number of publications on the Walruses, including an operational history of A2-18, but so far everything suggests that the yellow colour was added in 1947 when 4 of these birds were converted for Arctic usage / whaling

e.g. Hamiltonian's beautiful Revell 1/72 Walrus: Whale-spotting in the Southern Ocean

 

Was there ever a yellow RAAF Walrus/Seagull V during the Pacific war and if yes where can I find evidence / pictures of it? One can suppose H-Models didn't invent it out of the blue ...

 

Many thanks!

 

F.

 

 

Franck,

 

I believe that H Models may have used one of a series of pic taken of A2-18 when she was in Sydney Harbour aboard HMAS Sydney circa 1939-40. Attached below are three of those shots. She was finished in overall V.84 Aluminium at the time and did not have a black planing bottom. She may not have seen service in the Pacific War, but did certainly see service aboard several ships prior to her demise in late 1941. Still well worthy of a model.

 

Cheers,

Peter M

 

 

 

[Rod Blievers]

Quote

Still well worthy of a model.

 

Hi Peter - if, for no other reason, to commemorate the ship. The memorial at Geraldton gets me every time...

[RAF4EVER]

33 minutes ago, Rod Blievers said:

Hi Peter - if, for no other reason, to commemorate the ship. The memorial at Geraldton gets me every time...

When I visit the War Graves cemetery at Oosterbeek[The Netherlands], what really gets my attention, and makes me weep[wrong word],is the stones with no name,a SOLDIER KNOWN UNTO GOD, some ones husband,son,father or brother,may they rest in peace

Edited August 27, 2021 by RAF4EVER

[RAF4EVER]

@FranckH, sorry to hijack your thread.

[k5054nz]

On 8/27/2021 at 12:25 PM, LDSModeller said:

Slightly OT - FYI for you (other modellers) if you want a Pacific Walrus?

Re The decal profiles above The RNZAF profile, whilst NZ151 did exist, the profile

should not be taken at face value (i.e no black undersides)

 

Regards

 

Alan

Intriguingly the cover for the decals appears to show a grey/green camouflage on the topsides of NZ151...that doesn't seem right?

 

Also as an aside from an RNZAF representative on another forum, when using RNZAF images they should be credited 'RNZAF Official' for photos less than 20 years old or 'Air Force Museum of New Zealand' for photos taken by the RNZAF more than 20 years ago. 👍

[LDSModeller]

7 minutes ago, k5054nz said:

Also as an aside from an RNZAF representative on another forum, when using RNZAF images they should be credited 'RNZAF Official' for photos less than 20 years old or 'Air Force Museum of New Zealand' for photos taken by the RNZAF more than 20 years ago. 

Thanks Zac, I was just following what the Museum Website said for Copyright, will go back

and read just in case👍

 

Regards

 

Alan

[k5054nz]

If they've changed it I have a message to send someone! 

[LDSModeller]

7 minutes ago, k5054nz said:

If they've changed it I have a message to send someone!

Just Re-read the Copyright rules, All Photos are Crown Copyrighted (belong to RNZAF, so RNZAF Official), but,

it seems now the Term "Air Force Museum of New Zealand" should be used instead of "RNZAF Museum"

(Should have twigged when I last Emailed the Museum)

Thanks/regards

 

Alan

[FranckH]

Thank you very much for your time and answers!

 

As I really fell in love with the yellow Walrus I will be rebuilding the civilian conversion (no need for a what-if as this one has indeed existed) but it will have to wait a little bit.

 

For my Pacific war event I will be building Enola Gay. I had initially discarded it due to it's monstrous size in 1/48 (90cm) but have compromised on the 1/72 which is still going to be pretty large.

 

Thanks again!

 

F.

[k5054nz]

7 hours ago, k5054nz said:

Intriguingly the cover for the decals appears to show a grey/green camouflage on the topsides of NZ151...that doesn't seem right?

Thoughts, Alan @LDSModeller?

[LDSModeller]

12 minutes ago, k5054nz said:

Thoughts, Alan

 

Hi Zac,

 

Yes, I thought the exact same thing - My understanding , is that

RNZAF (RN/RNZN) Walrus's were painted Silver/Aluminium overall*

during service, and looking at photos of NZ150 she appears to be wearing this,

 I think it's just the Sun's position/shadow giving an appearance of TTS paint on top

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Use with Permissions)

 

To totally throw a spanner in the works, of NZ151 having a TSS top scheme, is this photo I

found of L2222 ( later NZ151) after arrival at Hobby - note the Scheme.

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Use with Permissions)

 

*Of Course there is always exceptions to the rule

Note the top of the engine cover of this Walrus at Hobby - not Silver/Aluminium

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Use with Permissions)

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Ed Russell]

 

31 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

L2222 ( later NZ151)

Those pictures of L2222 and NZ151 are very interesting but they don't verify the H-Model decals. It looks as though all of the visible markings are diferent between the two identities. It is tempting to suggest that the plane was overhauled, which may have included re-bagging, and the camouflage colours removed and replaced with Aluminium dope as a finish. It may be possible to verify this from the NZ equivalent of Status Cards.

[LDSModeller]

7 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

Those pictures of L2222 and NZ151 are very interesting but they don't verify the H-Model decals. It looks as though all of the visible markings are diferent between the two identities. It is tempting to suggest that the plane was overhauled, which may have included re-bagging, and the camouflage colours removed and replaced with Aluminium dope as a finish. It may be possible to verify this from the NZ equivalent of Status Cards.

Not sure I was verifying the H Decals ? The Scheme was in question?

 

It's my understanding that the RNZAF Walrus's were from the likes of RN ships/RNZN Ships

(as RNZN was an arm of RN at the time) - so a variation of roundels/markings/colours etc would

have seen various aircraft at different states at different times.

More than likely repainted with different roundels/markings to suit New Zealand/Pacific Conditions

( As a quick FYI, RNZAF followed British Air Ministry practices/Orders, but colour variations were at discretion

of RNZAF with paint types and suited to local conditions)

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, LDSModeller said:

Not sure I was verifying the H Decals ? The Scheme was in question?

No, I didn't think that was your intent. The decals in the RNZAF schene may be usable? Apart from the ANARE one, none of the schemes potrayed on either set of decals are accurate as is. Even the ANARE one requires the DH874 decal to be re-arranged and a DF loop to be added.

[LDSModeller]

16 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

The decals in the RNZAF schene may be usable? Apart from the ANARE one, none of the schemes potrayed on either set of decals are accurate as is. Even the ANARE one requires the DH874 decal to be re-arranged and a DF loop to be added.

Having Found a link to what the decals look like, the RNZAF ones maybe usable as is

(though Dark Blue looks a bit lighter than it should and Blue outer a bit thinner)

I did note the RNZAF Profile missing the Pitot tube (probably a few other items too)

H Models Decals - RAAF Walrus

[MilneBay]

One thing I might add. Just be careful that you don't miss the little physical difference between the Seagull and the Walrus. The Walrus has an additional set of interplane struts at the inner leading edge of the wings, close to the engine nacelle. The Seagull V did not have these.  

[Ed Russell]

That's quite correct, although we found when doing the decal sheet, there a few pictures of Seagulls with an extra strut and Walruses minus the strut. Don't know why. Alwys best to model from a photograph and research the airframe by serial number.