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Colour question for the Airfix 1:32 'Rommels Half Track'


Skyhunter66

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I bought this kit a few years ago and decided it woule be my next project as the last time i built one was in the very early 1980's!

So given this is Rommels machine and Afrika Korps should the inside be the same colour as the outside as the call out is for dark grey?

Second the outside colour is given as Humbrol 74 Linen but this doesn't look right. What is the right colour for the 'yellow' and the camo 'grey'? I use Tamiya, Gunze and Vallejo in the main

Finally what are the correct colurs for the Afrika Korps uniforms - the kit gives me Rommel himself, a driver and another officer

 

Many thanks!

Chris 

 

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As far as I am aware, the Afrika Korp equipment were painted Panzer Grey overall when they arrived in Africa but were then overpainted externally with a sand colour. I built the Airfix kit a few years ago and did the same, applying a patchy coat of H93 Matt Desert Yellow over the grey:

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Dave

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As noted above, early vehicles were delivered in Dunkelgrau and repainted locally.  The paint wore off quickly.  Despite persistent rumours to the contrary there is no evidence that Luftwaffe colours were used.

 

The authorised base colour was initially RAL8000 Grunbraun with patches of RAL7008 Khakigrau covering 1/3 of the vehicle.  The colour contrast between 8000 and 7008 was minimal and is often indiscernable in monochrome photos, especially under a layer of dust.

 

In recognition of this the colours changed in March 1942 to a base colour of RAL8020 Gelbbraun overpainted with 1/3 RAL7027 Sandgrau.  Surviving older vehicles were not required to be repainted.

 

Once Tropen painting began at factories and in base depots these same colours were used.

 

No Humbrol colours are formulated to match any of these colours.  The recent Tamiya DAK colours  XF 92 & 93 are supposed to be good matches and there are a whole range of allegedly-matched colours from all the leading paint brands.  Discussion of which is "best" or "most correct" will take from now until hell freezes over and will not reach a conclusion, and people will then still insist on mixing their own "better" colours .........

Edited by Das Abteilung
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As mentioned,  the first contingent vehicles arrived in their European grey scheme.  Often asked what they were repainted with, that still has not been solved.   All we have are photos, and the best historical account in terms of words, is from a panzer crew member's diary stating they finally painted their mount with yellow paint.   This still leaves open to interpretation  the source of said paint.

 

There is also the early use of desert sand applied to surfaces.   The quickest method would be a slurry mix of water and sand dabbed onto the vehicle.  A bit more complex approach was applying oil to the surfaces as a means of holding the sand in place. 

 

1956100_89728f4b432f9a2235a54a9a8cd98b63

 

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-443-1589-07,_Nord

 

Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1991-031-25A,_Nord

 

The high contrast, along with what looks like wet streaking, and rough edged patches suggests to me wet sand application, with original grey paint showing as intended camouflage shapes.   Of course, just an opinion.

 

Uniform material came from more than one source, so there would be some variation.  When new they could appear quite dark, but washing and particularly sun fading would bleach to literally an off-white shade.   One of my reference books describes the original colour as ranging from a brown to a dark olive green khaki.

 

 

regards,

Jack

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Not sure I agree with the suggestion above.  The jerrycans on the back will be dunkelgrau, noticeably darker than any part of the vehicle.  I believe that is a 2-colour paint scheme.  With the higher contrast between the 2 colours under the dust I would suggest the later 7027/8020 rather than the early 7008/8000.

 

This photo of Bovington's Tiger in the early colours shows the low contrast.  These colours are believed to be accurate and were matched to surviving paint found during restoration to running condition.  They have recently repainted their Sd.Kfz251 in the same scheme, which would be a better comparison with the 250 - but annoyingly no-one seems to have uploaded any post-repaint photos of it.  However, what we each see will vary slightly because of different eyesight, monitor settings not to mention the light and camera settings of the photo.  Having seen the real thing many times this photo looks "about right".

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Edited by Das Abteilung
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I see the point about the jerrycans being darker, but their sides are vertical.   Meanwhile, the upper half of the vehicle surfaces are angled to reflect the sun's rays, as well as hold dust.   The fuel cans may have recently been filled or emptied, and their handling wiped off some dust?

 

Am open to the idea that the vehicle could be in tropen paint, as it seems photos of Grief appear only in 1942?   I still get the impression that however it arrived in North Africa, it did receive an application of some kind of sand mixture.

 

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regards,

Jack

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Hallo

There I have just a logic question. I do not know, how many command vehicles did Rommel actually use? One Greif for all the years? Is this particular the same vehicle on all photos?

Happy modelling 

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14 hours ago, dov said:

Hallo

There I have just a logic question. I do not know, how many command vehicles did Rommel actually use? One Greif for all the years? Is this particular the same vehicle on all photos?

Happy modelling 

A quick google search comes up with three SdKfz used "GREIF", "ADLER", and "IGEL", GREIF with the licence plate "WH 937036".

 

It would be a cute little project to trace all available photographs and check the licence plates and build a data base with time line, some pics may be found here: https://app-in-die-geschichte.de/documents/5541

 

Another nice piece of "further reading" ("all" his command vehicles): https://de.topwar.ru/135723-rommel-v-afrike.html

Edited by Jochen Barett
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Jack G's 2nd picture of the right side is perhaps more informative.  In that photo the dark patches on the vehicle and the fuel cans are tonally about the same.  But that is tone, not colour.

 

So, yes - it could be an application of some sort of "sand" over dunkelgrau.  The runs across the darker patches might indeed suggest some sort of sand slurry mixed with water, or very hurried painting.  But it could still be 7027/8020.  I'd like to see a reliable tonal comparison of dusty dunkelgrau and sandgrau.

 

As an open-top vehicle the interior would need to be a colour relevant to the environment.  A dunkelgrau interior would really stand out from the air as a dark patch, although the interior shadow would be a dark patch anyway.  Ground attack pilots often reported that shadow was their best clue to targets.

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Probably too sterile a study, but might be interesting to some.   I took the colour swatches found in a missinglynx thread, where a regular member had a downloadable link he created of a word document for paints of DAK vehicles.   Below  are the digital colour swatches stitched together for ease of comparison.   Top and bottom are obviously the grey sample, while sandwiched in between  are first tropen set, and immediately below it the second tropen set

 

The colour comparison was then opened in a b/w film emulator, utilizing panchromatic and orthochromatic settings.  In grey form the panchromatic example shows the best contrast is the second tropen scheme.

 

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The contrast just does not quite match the below photo.  Taking the tones from the front fender, another grey sample is made,  labeled A B:

 

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grief-grey-compared.jpg

 

1.   This A B sample is now superimposed over the panchromatic greys, and reveals not a very close match to any tropen set in grey form.

 

2.    Perhaps the photo was manipulated,  so the A B sample has contrast reduce 35%, and best matches are RAL 8000 and RAL 8020. 

 

There are of course many different adjustments to try, gamma, brightness, intensity...  This just shows it's not that straight forward to read greys into colour.  

 

 

regards,

Jack

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On 27/08/2021 at 17:41, JackG said:

+++

There are of course many different adjustments to try, gamma, brightness, intensity...  This just shows it's not that straight forward to read greys into colour. 

regards,

Jack

I fear there are way too many variables in the equation.

 

From start to finish at least:

- film, I'd assume German film (or maybe Italian?), so it was probably panchromatic not orthochromatic in those days, but was it Agfa, Adox, Perutz, Voigtländer or whatever?

- light? OK, it is bright daylight with clearly defined shadows (but where is the horizon?) so maybe 5500-5800°K

- how clean was the object pictured? (I've heard there was some dust at times and though in the first pics in this thread (driver's side) it looks as if "GREIF" is in one color plus a white outline and the Balkenkreuze are definitely black&white, that contrast is less pronounced / visible in the last picture shown)

- what are possible or maybe even probable combinations of paint? (is one of the shades Panzergrau and the other mud or is it all RAL paints or Italian or looted British paint?)

- filter used? yes, "Sport" (light yellow), yellow, ... or none?

- over/under correct exposure?

- over/under correct developement?

- print done on which grade (normal/special/soft/hard to compensate for exposure and developement) and make of paper (Afga, Leonar, ...)? White or chamois base?

- print stored, propagated / scanned and processed over and over again in which way?

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14 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

 it looks as if "GREIF" is in one color plus a white outline and the Balkenkreuze are definitely black&white, that contrast is less pronounced / visible in the last picture shown)

 

 

 

 

Yes, the name GREIF is only outlined in white on the right side of the vehicle, while the left side it appears to be white with the centers painted in (red?).    I don't know if this was done on purpose, or the painting was unfinished.

 

 

regards,

Jack

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In this one at least the right hand side Balkenkreuz looks black&white https://app-in-die-geschichte.de/document/18910

this one appears like "a lot of mud applied" to me https://app-in-die-geschichte.de/document/18900

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/LTRsmlOxcTT05evxKmvnMZ7rA4yDZTahA3bRPSQBerWP7vhVWm-XaXfCV2lSk1kRavogDt2sXksMdmrS97OA31eaNn0

 

Here https://www.flickr.com/photos/damopabe/3074178249 the colorizer had a different point of view on things than the one here https://www.pinterest.de/pin/744712488353335811/

 

and here we see a heavy crust on the vehicle (scroll down a bit) https://reibert.info/threads/dak-bundesarchiv-bild.207860/page-3

or view here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-784-0249-02A%2C_Nordafrika%2C_Rommel_im_Befehlsfahrzeug_"Greif".jpg

 

Maybe it is a good idea to apply a liberal amount of "sand" and build a small diorama with Greif parked right next to a wall. 😇 😎

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Some informations can be obtained from a comparison to the background colors. The lighter shade of the vehicle appears lighter than the shade of the ground, it suggests that it could be identified with the lightest  between possible camouflage colors. 

The contrast to the darker shadow is even stronger of what expected from the table, so it wasn't hidden by sand or dust.

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I'm not suggesting "most probably Italian", I'm just listing possible solutions - and "Italian paint" and "looted British paint" is not backed by any evidence, report, smart conclusion or anything like that. Just another "idea" on the table.

 

When it comes to GREIF, I'm still puzzled that the writing looks like "some color (maybe red) with white outline" on the vehicle's left hand side and "white outline only" on the right - on all pictures I found so far.

 

When checking Scalemates https://www.scalemates.com/de/kits/airfix-06501-6-half-track-sd-kfz-250-3--130015 on all versions of the kit and all three instruction sheets https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/0/1/5/130015-15-instructions.pdf https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/9/3/3/173933-46-instructions.pdf https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/7/7/9/181779-16-instructions.pdf downloadable, it doesn't get much better.

 

At first Airfix gave "M14" (linen) as a single color (contradicting the own boxart!), in those days usually matched to Humbrol 74 (matched by Humbrol to HB.16 World War I Aircraft Clear Doped Linen = N.4 Naval Vessels Deck Bleached Teak = HR.103 Rail Lining Cream).

 

Later Humbrol 63 and Humbrol's own matching table of the olden days told us it was like "HM.2 Military Vehicles Afrika Korps Desert Yellow".

 

Finally Airfix gave Humbrol 74 and 27 (Sea Grey, matched by Humbrol to HB.7 Fleet Air Arm Extra Dark Sea Grey = HG.4 Luftwaffe Dunkelgrau 74 (Dark Grey) = HN.2 Naval Vessels Dark Grey = HR.111 B.R. (Freight) Freight Stock Grey) was given and the information "Tobruk 1942". And that could well be their idea of matching RAL 8020 and 7021 (as listed here http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/a_relaunch/wh_tarn-d.htm to be the official camo as of March '42).

 

"But" according to Pantzerbaer

"Tobruk

Als Rommels Truppen im Juni 1942 Tobruk einnahmen, erbeuteten sie Unmengen von britischem Gerät und Material, so dass das britische Desert Sand nebst anderen so umfassend in Gebrauch war, dass es fast schon Standard war - was auch für viele britische Fahrzeuge gilt."

roughly translated to:

"When Rommel's troop conquered Tobruk in June 1942, they looted huge amounts of British equipment and materials/supplies, so that British Desert Sand among other paints was used in such an extent that it almost was the standard - applying to a lot of Britis vehicles as well"

 

So maybe GREIF was Panzergrau and received improved two tone camo by adding British Sand, maybe it came in 8020&7021 right from the start.

What does Tamiya-san say? https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/6/0/9/1004609-99-instructions.pdf "1941"(!) and "Panzergrau and dark yellow".

 

In any case, I'd give that car a heavy wash with sand so nobody can tell what actual color is below the dirt.

Edited by Jochen Barett
typo
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2 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

I'm not suggesting "most probably Italian", I'm just listing possible solutions - and "Italian paint" and "looted British paint" is not backed by any evidence, report, smart conclusion or anything like that. Just another "idea" on the table.

 

When it comes to GREIF, I'm still puzzled that the writing looks like "some color (maybe red) with white outline" on the vehicle's left hand side and "white outline only" on the right - on all pictures I found so far.

 

When checking Scalemates https://www.scalemates.com/de/kits/airfix-06501-6-half-track-sd-kfz-250-3--130015 on all versions of the kit and all three instruction sheets https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/0/1/5/130015-15-instructions.pdf https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/9/3/3/173933-46-instructions.pdf https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/7/7/9/181779-16-instructions.pdf downloadable, it doesn't get much better.

 

At first Airfix gave "M14" (linen) as a single color (contradicting the own boxart!), in those days usually matched to Humbrol 74 (matched by Humbrol to HB.16 World War I Aircraft Clear Doped Linen = N.4 Naval Vessels Deck Bleached Teak = HR.103 Rail Lining Cream).

 

Later Humbrol 63 and Humbrol's own matching table of the olden days told us it was like "HM.2 Military Vehicles Afrika Korps Desert Yellow".

 

Finally Airfix gave Humbrol 74 and 27 (Sea Grey, matched by Humbrol to HB.7 Fleet Air Arm Extra Dark Sea Grey = HG.4 Luftwaffe Dunkelgrau 74 (Dark Grey) = HN.2 Naval Vessels Dark Grey = HR.111 B.R. (Freight) Freight Stock Grey) was given and the information "Tobruk 1942". And that could well be their idea of matching RAL 8020 and 7021 (as listed here http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/a_relaunch/wh_tarn-d.htm to be the official camo as of March '42).

 

"But" according to Pantzerbaer

"Tobruk

Als Rommels Truppen im Juni 1942 Tobruk einnahmen, erbeuteten sie Unmengen von britischem Gerät und Material, so dass das britische Desert Sand nebst anderen so umfassend in Gebrauch war, dass es fast schon Standard war - was auch für viele britische Fahrzeuge gilt."

roughly translated to:

"When Rommel's troop conquered Tobruk in June 1942, they looted huge amounts of British equipment and materials/supplies, so that British Desert Sand among other paints was used in such an extent that it almost was the standard - applying to a lot of Britis vehicles as well"

 

So maybe GREIF was Panzergrau and received improved two tone camo by adding British Sand, maybe it came in 8020&7021 right from the start.

What does Tamiya-san say? https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/6/0/9/1004609-99-instructions.pdf "1941"(!) and "Panzergrau and dark yellow".

 

In any case, I'd give that car a heavy wash with sand so nobody can tell what actual color is below the dirt.

I was actually suggesting Italian paint. 
With the Germans entering Tripoli in February of ‘41, I’m sure they probably grabbed the easiest paint to find, and slapped it on the Panzer gray vehicles. 
The paint doesn’t seem to have weathered too well, wearing off those early vehicles quite badly, which leads me to believe it’s not British paint, but a much less durable Italian Air Force shade. 
 

Anyway. Just my 2 cents worth, with nothing to back it up. 
But yes, with as much sand, dust, dirt and grime, pretty much fade the crap out of it, and you’re good to go :D

 

 

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On 17 March 1941, Inspectorate 2 ordered that equipment in North Africa should be painted two-thirds yellow-brown (gelbbraun RAL 8000) and one-third gray-green (graugrün RAL 7008). Canvas items was to be also to be painted using a special type of paint.

 

On 25 March 1942, Inspectorate 2 ordered that gelbbraun and graugrün were to be replaced by brown (braun RAL 8020) and gray (grau RAL 7027) once existing paint stocks were depleted, using the same pattern.

 

Above was just copy/paste from here:

https://panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

 

Incidentally, the first set of colours already existed on the RAL charts for a number of years.  Both of them heavily used in the rail industry, according to research from Tomas Chory.

 

----------

About Italian aircraft paints, the same idea has been offered as being utilized by the Italian Army on their North African vehicles, but has never been proven.  The closest may have been a veteran's statement that they used whatever they could get their hands on.

 

----------

 

That last photo could  easily pass for layers of dust, either natural or purposely applied.  Markings were then wiped clean, possibly with a wet rag, with the resulting water streaking?  Possibly fingerprints cleaning off the dust on upper edges?

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

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8 hours ago, Longbow said:

I was actually suggesting Italian paint. 
With the Germans entering Tripoli in February of ‘41, I’m sure they probably grabbed the easiest paint to find, and slapped it on the Panzer gray vehicles. 
The paint doesn’t seem to have weathered too well, wearing off those early vehicles quite badly, which leads me to believe it’s not British paint, but a much less durable Italian Air Force shade. 
 

Anyway. Just my 2 cents worth, with nothing to back it up. 
But yes, with as much sand, dust, dirt and grime, pretty much fade the crap out of it, and you’re good to go :D

 

 

 

Have you seen any document stating that Italian Air Force paints were less durable or were in general not particularly durable ? I ask because there's no reference in what has been found on the Regia Aeronautica that the air force or units ever complained about durability of paints in general and phototgraphic evidence shows how even after the war Italian WW2 aircraft were no more and no less weathered than British ones of the same age. Same for relics recovered in the many years since the end of the war and I have personally seen artifacts from the era that, while clearly showing the signs of age, did not show any particular adhesion problem.

Of course the use of paints designed for use on aluminum alloys over a different material may have led to very different results, but this would be a problem with any kind of aircraft paint. The Regia Aeronautica also specified paints for use on steel and other materials of course (as did the RAF and all other air forces) but these were generally used for internal structures rather than camouflage

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1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Have you seen any document stating that Italian Air Force paints were less durable or were in general not particularly durable ? I ask because there's no reference in what has been found on the Regia Aeronautica that the air force or units ever complained about durability of paints in general and phototgraphic evidence shows how even after the war Italian WW2 aircraft were no more and no less weathered than British ones of the same age. Same for relics recovered in the many years since the end of the war and I have personally seen artifacts from the era that, while clearly showing the signs of age, did not show any particular adhesion problem.

Of course the use of paints designed for use on aluminum alloys over a different material may have led to very different results, but this would be a problem with any kind of aircraft paint. The Regia Aeronautica also specified paints for use on steel and other materials of course (as did the RAF and all other air forces) but these were generally used for internal structures rather than camouflage

I have not. And as stated above, it’s just my 2 cents worth. 

 

There’s no proof that it Did happen, and no proof that it Didn’t happen. 
 

But with a little digging, you do find this. 
 

Quote :-
 

The first unit sent to Africa was the 5. Leichte-Division (later in August 1941 it was renamed 21. Panzer Div.) and these were the only combat vehicles sent in grey paint.  There are many photos of their landing and parade at Tripoli. 

There is some opinion that only recon vehicles (and perhaps the earliest in arrivel of some motorized AT) were camouflaged with local sand/mud mixes, as these vehicles were sent immediately forward to scope out British dispositions.  The main armoured units remained in Sirte for a work up period before the first offensive was launched on the 24th of March.  Tropical colours were decided upon a week prior on the 17th - whether that was enough time to send paint tins of RAL 8000 as well as apply a hurried paint job is unknown.  Sirte does have an airfield, so who knows.  Some have suggested possible Italian paints were used, but they too did not officially have a desert sand paint for their army until a decision was made on the 18th, a day after a choice was made for the Afrikakorps.

The next tank unit, the 15. Panzer Div., arrived between April 24 and May 6th 1941.  These were finished in tropical paint at the factory.  What is further interesting about these vehicles, they arrived with the rubber sides of road wheels and return rollers painted in white.  Apparently this was just for parade purposes while at their Italian harbour before boarding ships.

Edited by Longbow
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