Grumman Hellcats in FAA service - when did they turn Blue?

[Grey Beema]

Grumman Hellcats in FAA service - when did they turn Blue?

 

Hi all,

 

I want to use to the collective brain to try and resolve a little dilemma for me.

 

On the theme of Fleet Air Arm Aces I intend building a few more Hellcats representing aircraft of 5th Navy Fighter Wing Pilots (1839 & 1844 NAS) and I have hit a bit of a dilemma.

 

I have as WIP at the moment a MkI and an MkI of the FN999 and JW999 Serial range but I intend to build a couple more:-

 

Hellcat II JX814/W132 - ‘Tony’ destroyed, ‘Oscar’ destroyed 12.04.45 SLt WMC Foster.

Hellcat II JX886/W126 - ‘Judy’ Shared destroyed 06.04.45 SLt TE Wilson.

 

Both of these victories were during Op Iceberg April ‘45.  JX814 & JX886 were both allocated in 03.45.

 

My question is, should these aircraft be in TSS or GSB?

 

I have not seen any photos of either JX814 or JX886 but the common view is (and repeated in artwork in Andrew Thomas’ Royal Navy Aces of WW2) that if they are Iceberg aircraft they are in TSS but should this be the case?  

 

I have a still from a film taken on HMS Formidable showing the Corsairs being serviced, in the background is Hellcat X119 that is identified by Sturtivant as JX772 the aircraft flown by SLt Atkinson to destroy three ‘Grace’ bombers on 25.07.45 (also written into Atkinson’s log book). The aircraft being allocated to 1839 NAS 06.45 and reallocated to 1844 NAS 07.45 - it is painted Dark Blue.  

 

If JX814 and JX886 have a higher s/n that JX772 should they not also be in GSB or was JX772 built out of sequence or repainted? (or is my my sequential build assumption wrong?)..

 

If it helps I think JX814 and JX886 are in the BuAer Group 71638-77112 and JX772 in group 71163-71237 but my maths might have failed me..

 

Hope someone can help or I will just go with TSS which seems to be the scheme at the time..

 

Thanks in advance..

 

[Seahawk]

Still working your way through FAA Aces of WW2?

 

I’m sorry I’m away from my references at the mo so this is all from the notes on my PC.  As far as I have been able to establish from photographs (ie discounting all artwork) JX780 was definitely in TSS (K7P on Speaker 16/2/45: Aeromiliaria 91/3 p.74).  JX841 was definitely in SBG (B9L of 898 Sq, Pursuer, July 45: Wings for the Phoenix, p.213) and I don’t believe I have seen any photos of any late-serialled Hellcats in TSS.  Between those 2 serials it is, as far as my researches have taken me, a mixture of murky inconclusive photos and artwork.  So it looks to me as if JX886 was probably in SBG but that JX814 could have in either.

 

If we are talking about the Hellcats detached to Formidable, there is a 14 sec clip showing at least 2 Hellcats.  One, 122 (seen on u/c door)is in SBG with a TSS cowling ring and, less definitely, a white top to the port aileron.  It has prominent white stencil markings and no rocket stubs.  The other seen was POSSIBLY 123/X but I don’t seem to have recorded any details for that: too fleeting a glimpse maybe.  But at least one of Formid’s Hellcats was in TSS: photo of one, alas with no identifying markings visible, in Brooke’s Alarm Starboard! If I recall Brooke correctly there were a total of 6 transferred: 4 nightfighters and 2 recce.  The 14 Sec clip can be found at 2:28:46 to 2:29:00 of Part 3 of Ron Owen (correct name?) DVD on the British Pacific and Eastern Fleets.

 

I’m pretty sure we have discussed Formid’s Hellcats before on this board: maybe worth looking those earlier threads up.

 

And, if @iang pitches in, I defer to him and scuttle back under my amateur dilettante rock!

[Grey Beema]

23 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Still working your way through FAA Aces of WW2?

 

I’m sorry I’m away from my references at the mo so this is all from the notes on my PC.  As far as I have been able to establish from photographs (ie discounting all artwork) JX780 was definitely in TSS (K7P on Speaker 16/2/45: Aeromiliaria 91/3 p.74).  JX841 was definitely in SBG (B9L of 898 Sq, Pursuer, July 45: Wings for the Phoenix, p.213) and I don’t believe I have seen any photos of any late-serialled Hellcats in TSS.  Between those 2 serials it is, as far as my researches have taken me, a mixture of murky inconclusive photos and artwork.  So it looks to me as if JX886 was probably in SBG but that JX814 could have in either.

 

If we are talking about the Hellcats detached to Formidable, there is a 14 sec clip showing at least 2 Hellcats.  One, 122 (seen on u/c door)is in SBG with a TSS cowling ring and, less definitely, a white top to the port aileron.  It has prominent white stencil markings and no rocket stubs.  The other seen was POSSIBLY 123/X but I don’t seem to have recorded any details for that: too fleeting a glimpse maybe.  But at least one of Formid’s Hellcats was in TSS: photo of one, alas with no identifying markings visible, in Brooke’s Alarm Starboard! If I recall Brooke correctly there were a total of 6 transferred: 4 nightfighters and 2 recce.  The 14 Sec clip can be found at 2:28:46 to 2:29:00 of Part 3 of Ron Owen (correct name?) DVD on the British Pacific and Eastern Fleets.

 

I’m pretty sure we have discussed Formid’s Hellcats before on this board: maybe worth looking those earlier threads up.

 

And, if @iang pitches in, I defer to him and scuttle back under my amateur dilettante rock!

Thanks for you efforts Seahawk, I always assumed that the aircraft would be built in serial number order thus there might be a few murky ones however I get the feeling it might not have been such a short cut over to Sea Blue.

 

From the info I have, yes there were four “rather dog-eared” Hellcats transferred to Formidable for Night Fighting and two for PR. The PR ones were de-gunned and spent two days being waxed and polished for extra speed.

 

JX814 & JX886 were on Indomitable when I want to model them - April ‘45 (Op.Iceberg).  I have seen a picture of a Blue Hellcat amongst TSS Hellcats on Indomitable but the photo is not dated.  I’m just wondering if Sea Blue Hellcats were more numerous during Op. Iceberg than I thought...

 

As for the Aces collection, I have 26 completed, 2 WIP, 8 in Stash and 3 to procure....  I just need to find the space to display them...

 

Hopefully @iang, @Graham Boak, @ClaudioN Might be along soon to sort me out..

[EwenS]

From the information I hold, again ignoring artwork, the change occurred in the JX670-JX964 serial range. From the Joe Baugher site this ties back to 4 batches of US BuNos.

 

JX670-739 - BuNos 70693-70762 - these all appear to be TSS. From photos I've identified JX696,675,701 & 725

JX740-814 - BuNos 71163-71237 - JX814 TSS but JX741,750,772 all SBG

JX815-889 - BuNos 71638-71712 - JX878 TSS but JX841 SBG

JX890-964 - BuNos 72113-72136 - JX890 TSS but JX899 SBG

Don't ask me the source of the JX814 pic. I've looked at so many over the years. 

 

For the first 3 batches of the BuNos the RN serials seem to match sequentially for the incomplete data on Joe Baugher's site. For the last batch however the two serials on Joe Baughers site are not a sequential match.

 

So far I haven't found a single Hellcat in TSS from JX965 onwards.

 

During Iceberg there was a shortage of all aircraft types but Hellcats seem to have been badly affected with Indomitable running below her full complement for much of the time. 1840 Hellcat squadron was disbanded to give aircraft and pilots to Indomitable's squadrons. 1840 was on Speaker and arrived in Sydney 23 Feb 1945. She picked up replacement aircraft as she passed through Ceylon. There is sufficient evidence to say that some SBG Hellcats found there way to the Pacific for Iceberg. Most of the aircraft in India would have been from earlier deliveries starting in March 1944. Deliveries at the end of 1944 were either to Britain or to South Africa. 124 aircraft were then flown out from Britain to India starting Feb 1945.

[JackG]

Don't know how this fits in, but the date of March 13, 1944 specified all US Naval production aircraft to be finished in GSB.   I've not been able to find how this affected Hellcat production for the FAA.   Maybe the first batch  was already ordered before this date,  and per agreement were finished in TSS, or the usual standard of using up paint stocks before switching to new scheme?

 

 

Accuracy of  this linked site??   The batch figures do not add up to the claimed total of 930 Mk.II Hellcats delivered to the FAA.   It also has JX670 as part of the third batch delivered in September 1944.

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2019/06/29/hellcats-in-the-royal-navy/

 

 

 Photo of JX822 confirms overall GSB, but caption date should be 1944?

 

 

regards,

Jack

Edited August 15, 2021 by JackG

[Grey Beema]

@EwenS @JackG Great information, thank you.

 

JX814 defo TSS, JX866 could be either I’m guessing..  I might build a couple more Fulmars before I get to them, yet another can of worms...

 

Thanks again for you responses

 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

USN idea of F6F acceptances for the RN including which batch of Bureau Numbers the RN aircraft came from.

 

Contract 90071,
F6F-3 FN320-449, total 130, acceptances March to September 1943, by month 10, 10, 22, 28, 20, 20, 20
BuNos 04775 to 04958 (FN320-329), 08798-09047 (FN340-369), 25721-26195 (FN370-419), 65890-66244 (FN420-449)

 

Contract NOa(s)-846,
F6F-3 JV100-221, total 122, acceptances October 1943 to April 1944, by month 30, 20, 20, 20, 6, 13, 13
BuNos 39999-41305 (JV100-169), 41306-41325 (JV170-189) 41326-43137 (JV190-221)

 

Contract NOa(s)-846,
F6F-5/5N JV222-324 (103), JW700-784 (85), JW857-899 (43), JX670-967 (298) total 529
526 F6F-5 acceptances May to October 1944, by month 13, 113, 100, 75, 96, 129
3 F6F-5N acceptances, November and December 1944, by month 1, 2.
BuNos 58000-58999 (JV222-301), 69992-72991 (JV302-324, JW700-784, JW857-899, JX670-967).  So JX serial acceptances would begin in numbers in August 1944.

 

Contract NOa(s)-2676 (BuNos 77259 to 80258)
JX968-999 (32), JZ775-827 (53), JZ890-999 (110), KD103-160 (58), KE118-233 (116), total 369

292 F6F-5 acceptances December 1944 to June 1945, by month 85, 35, 35, 35, 45, 45, 14
77 F6F-5N acceptances January to June 1945, by month 22, 15, 20, 5, 10, 5

 

Contract NOa(s)-2676 (BuNos 93652 to 94521)
F6F-5 KE234-265, 32 all accepted July 1945

[gingerbob]

On 8/15/2021 at 2:38 PM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Contract NOa(s)-2676 (BuNos 77259 to 80258)
JX968-999 (32), JZ775-827 (53), JZ890-999 (110), KD103-160 (58), KE118-233 (116), total 369

292 F6F-5 acceptances December 1944 to June 1945, by month 85, 35, 35, 35, 45, 45, 14
77 F6F-5N acceptances January to June 1945, by month 22, 15, 20, 5, 10, 5

 

Hi Geoffrey,

 

A little late, but I've been sifting through for Grumman production data and was tabulating what you gave here.  There's a discrepancy in the bolded line- the total of 292 agrees with your totals (292+77=369), but the 'by month' figures add up to 294, not 292.

 

bob

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The middle 35 should have been 33, as in 85, 35, 33, 35, 45, 45, 14