Post War RAF Training schemes - do 'official' dates exist for each change?

[Rabbit Leader]

The Gnat is another interesting subject and any confirmed information on the later Light Aircraft Grey and Fluro Orange / Fluro Red / Signal Red scheme would be great to flush out.

Cheers.. Dave 

[Rod Blievers]

 

Turning back to Chipmunks and reds (lovely photo Irish 251 btw).

 

RN Chipmunks have never been of particular interest to me, but I believe they were initially Light Aircraft Grey overall with painted "dayglo orange" panels, this then evolved into overall Grey with the same red as RAF Chipmunks used, i.e. Signal Red BS381 537.

 

But there's a "trick" to RAF Chipmunks, evident if you look closely at every RAF Chipmunk in the second R/W/LAG scheme. This is apparent in this lovely sharp photo of 7 AEF's WG308. Notice how the red on the metal surfaces (mainplane forward of the spar and tailplane) is a subtly different shade to the red on the fabric surfaces. The metal paintwork appears glossier which possibly explains the difference - the Aircraft Painting guide (A.P. 119-0600-1E) calls for B.S. X29 on metal surfaces and B.S. X26 for fabric surfaces. I don't know what these different codes mean - does anyone have an explanation please?

 

This photo repays careful study by modellers:

 

1. The longeron reinforcing plates (a "T"-shape lying on its side) visible aft of the firewall at the black/white paint division (ahead of the yellow/black roundel sticker). These are present on all post 1983  Chipmunks, they appeared in Airfix's initial illustrations of their CAD but strangely are not present on the kit.

 

2. That black anti-dazzle panel - for a supposedly "standard" scheme there are odd variations. This aircraft has angular corners, some were rounded off, some ended closer to the spinner while on others the leading edge was one rounded arc. It certainly pays to check your reference photos!

[Agent K]

On 8/15/2021 at 3:21 AM, Rod Blievers said:

 

I think this is probably taken in summer of in the summer of 1973 as WK507 left UBAS in August 1973.

 

Owzat?

 

What a wonderful picture, thanks for sharing.

 

Whilst I don't know, and the rain/damp aircraft standing and grey skies leads one to believe it is a typical British summer, the trees bereft of leaves suggest it might not be summer?

[John B (Sc)]

Rabbit Leader - Yes I agree, the Gnat was interesting, as an aeroplane and for its colours. I had thought Gnats mostly went straight from the aluminium/orange dayglo scheme to red/white grey, but I have seen comment about there having being a grey/dayglo orange scheme briefly. Presumably that would have used dayglo adhesive patches rather than spray paint. Other than artist's impressions, including the Airfix kit scheme, I have not yet seen an RAF service  grey/dayglo Gnat photo.

 

Rod Blievers -  Well spotted. A slight shade difference seems fairly normal between metal and fabric surfaces. It is almost impossible to avoid, in some lights anyway.  (I am married to an artist & pilot who designed the colour scheme for a classic biplane we have a share  in - even with the greatest care & cunning in scheme design, subtle shade differences can be seen between metal & fabric surfaces in some lights , from some angles. Choosing the optimum shades helps - it seems red is one of the awkward colours for that, as well as being apt to fade differentially on different surfaces.)

 

The differences in those designations is probably about adhesion and coverage. Slight chemical differences to aid adhesion is my guess, Possibly to do with the surface tension contact angle effects for laydown and adhesion, which I think differ between fabric & metal.   I found some limited information on X.29, but nothing on X.26. Both are obsolete British Standards now.   

 

That is a superb photo, quite agree !

 

John B

[Graham Boak]

I can't quote dates, but I'm sure that the dayglo orange scheme disappeared fairly quickly replaced by the dayglo red.  This was then(?) used in patches and around for a few years before the red/white/grey scheme.  Whether the red dayglow was on a grey of silver airframe I don't know, but suspect silver.at least initially.

[Rod Blievers]

Quote

the trees bereft of leaves suggest it might not be summer?

Well spotted! More likely then the winter of 1972/1973 - it can't be earlier because the second R/W/LAG scheme wasn't promulgated until May 1972 and later than August 1973 (WK507's departure).

[Rod Blievers]

Quote

can't quote dates, but I'm sure that the dayglo orange scheme disappeared fairly quickly replaced by the dayglo red

Are we still discussing Chipmunks here, Graham? I thought the process was the other way around - DayGlo orange was around for most of the painted DayGlo panels period (1960-1963), which was starting to be replaced by DayGlo red around 1962, i.e. not long before the introduction of the 3M strips. Nearly all the photos that I've seen show orange, the only two reds are of  WK591 seen in July 1962 and WZ856 in May 1963. I'm the first to admit though that this assumption is based on a mere 20 photos so I'm not entirely convinced.

[Graham Boak]

I was thinking of Gnats, but the same should apply.  If the orange lasted  longer than I'd thought then so be it, but I'm glad that we agree there was a period of red dayglow before the strips.  But what was the rest of the aircraft painted at this time?

[John B (Sc)]

I suppose one4 snag with all this is that both dayglo orange and red faded fairly fast, at least as paint on finish.   The printed panels seemed more resistant to fade. I still have some small self adhesive orange dayglo sections from a roll an RAF detachment left,. I also have dayglo red patches form much later, Both last quite well in sunlight, unlike my dayglo paint.

 

I do recall seeing UAS Chipmunks with dayglo red stripes as well as some with dayglo orange stripes.   Can't recall, and haven't found any photos in my files showing Chipmunks with large dayglo red painted areas, only orange. Am fairly sure  some RN Vampire trainers were painted with dayglo red areas.  Frustratingly many of  my early photos were b&w. which makes it impossible to tell which shade of dayglo was used. 

 

I have a vague memory of seeing a Lightning two seater with dayglo training bands. Does anyone else recall that, or is  that just a  What-If of my mind? 

 

[Ossington 2]

Lightning T.5's have dayglo bands and T.4's yellow apparently (I haven't checked but that is how it's supposed to be). The differing reflectance on the wings in the above picture is due to enamel type paint used on the metal leading edge and cellulose dope on the fabric surface from the main spar rearwards.   

[XrayLima]

I know B&W is not very helpful but this is the only picture I have from my time (1968 - 1971) on the UAS. It was still Nottingham UAS when I joined then was renamed East Midlands UAS.

My memory says that all the aircraft on the UAS at Newton, and possibly the co-located AEF too, were silver/dayglo at that time. The UAS stripe was 'Lincoln Green'.

If anyone has better reference photos of EMUAS Chipmunks in that timeframe I would love to see them.

I might have to dust off some very rusty, basic modelling skills (!) and try to build one.

 

[John B (Sc)]

41 minutes ago, Ossington said:

Lightning T.5's have dayglo bands and T.4's yellow apparently (I haven't checked but that is how it's supposed to be). The differing reflectance on the wings in the above picture is due to enamel type paint used on the metal leading edge and cellulose dope on the fabric surface from the main spar rearwards.   

 Thanks  Ossington, Simper explanation than I thought - I presumed the cellulose dope coats were underneath with a final topcoat of gloss red finish. Why is the metal paint enamel - I thought cellulose based paints can work well on metal too, with correct primer and undercoat?

[Rod Blievers]

Quote

If anyone has better reference photos of EMUAS Chipmunks in that timeframe I would love to see them.

XrayLima - well THAT part is quite easy. Here's WK548 seen at Manby in July 1967:

 

 

WK508 Nottingham UAS Summer Camp at Manby July 1967 (David Anderson) by Rod Blievers, on Flickr

[Rod Blievers]

Quote

But what was the rest of the aircraft painted at this time?

Hi Graham:

 

This is fairly easy (at the risk of seeming to ignore the "never say never" adage) - the 3M adhesive strips started replacing the painted DayGlo areas around 1963 while Chipmunks didn't appear in the overall Grey scheme until 5 years later, so my thoughts are tyhat painted panels went with silver finished Chipmunks.

 

But what colour were the strips? They appear quite orange in some photos and red in others. Check out WD347 in this photo and the different strip colours evident on the starboard wing while I think you could argue that there are two different colours on the rear fuselage too.

 

This is one of my favorite Chipmunk photos, taken at Little Rissington somewhere around 1971-1972. From the top: WP807/15 of CFS (the "prototype" of the first R/W/LAG scheme), WG478/20, WK507/36, WK643/39 (all from 2 FTS) and WD347/03 from CFS. The latter is overall Grey and has "03" repeated on the flaps. Who'd have thought that WG478 and WK507 would still be airworthy 50 years' later sharing a hangar on the other side of the world!

 

Probably taken at Little Rissington. From the top - WP807, 15 from CFS, then WK643, 39, then WK507, 36 and WG478, 20, all from 2 Fts, with WD347, 03 from CFS by Rod Blievers, on Flickr

[XrayLima]

6 hours ago, Rod Blievers said:

XrayLima - well THAT part is quite easy. Here's WK548 seen at Manby in July 1967:

 

Thanks. Just what I was hoping for.

 

Interesting that there is a different positioning of the UAS badge on the cowling between that 1967 picture and my one, which would be late 1968 or 1969 according to my log book.

Maybe the two sides were different at the same time? Could be a local swap of a cowling from another airframe during servicing or repair?

The starboard cowling would have had a lot of wear, being opened and closed every flight to load/unload the starter cartridges in addition to pre-flight engine checks.

[Wez]

From my time in the mob (83-05 admittedly later than most of the period under discussion), we used quite a lot of dayglo tape (mostly for tool shadow boards but some aircraft use in very small amounts, oh, and home made zaps too )

 

Most of the time the dayglo tape was to the orange end of the spectrum, occasionally and I mean, very occasionally we'd see tape to the redder end of the spectrum, still orange but a redder orange.  This stuff usually came in smaller width rolls, if memory serves, 2" wide.

[Rod Blievers]

XrayLima - there's another difference in that the serial application in the coloured photo is different - it's mis-aligned and the characters are smaller than the standard 8" high ones. Of course all the photos I have of WK548 are from the LHS!

 

I have a theory! I have a 1960 photo showing WK548 with painted DayGlo panels and the normal 8" high serials. Of course the serial is painted over the painted panels, so that when the DayGlo was stripped I suspect off the serial was re-applied in that slightly odd form. Now in your photo the aircraft seems to me to be in Grey (a subjective opinion I know) - so is it possible that some time between when the coloured photos were taken in July 1967 and the aircraft went to 6 AEF on 27.11.1969 it was re-painted in the overall Grey scheme?

 

 

[Fritag]

 

@Rabbit Leader great thread and thanks for enticing @Rod Blievers into sharing some more of his awesome and invaluable chipmunk knowledge with us again.

 

On 8/18/2021 at 7:29 AM, Rod Blievers said:

But there's a "trick" to RAF Chipmunks, evident if you look closely at every RAF Chipmunk in the second R/W/LAG scheme. This is apparent in this lovely sharp photo of 7 AEF's WG308. Notice how the red on the metal surfaces (mainplane forward of the spar and tailplane) is a subtly different shade to the red on the fabric surfaces.

 

Great photo of WG308 Rod.  Great tip too. And thanks for sharing more chippie lore 

 

 

[Rabbit Leader]

1 hour ago, Fritag said:

 great thread… 

Thanks @Fritag and glad it’s gaining some traction. Post War RAF Training is a most attractive and colourful subject matter that deserves to be flushed out, talked about and most importantly… modelled. I agree, Rod is doing a superb job answering and posting photos of all things Chipmunk which is quite timely with the release of Airfix’s new 1/48 kit. My two arrived the other day and I’m tempted / threatening to possibly start a WIP! 
 

Cheers.. Dave 

[Anthony in NZ]

Here is my Auster, this pic dated 1967 from memory.  This is the scheme I will return her to 

 

Bit earlier 63 I think, note she still has WE552 on the rear fuse and note the replacement nose bowl still in green/brown cammo

Dont know if this is of any help

Cheers Anthony

 

[Rabbit Leader]

5 minutes ago, Anthony in NZ said:

Here is my Auster, this pic dated 1967 from memory.  This is the scheme I will return her to 

 

Bit earlier 63 I think, note she still has WE552 on the rear fuse and note the replacement nose bowl still in green/brown cammo

Dont know if this is of any help

Cheers Anthony

 

Very interesting Anthony, thanks for posting. Excuse my ignorance however are these photos part of the Hong Kong Air Force… just guessing from the HKG serial of the first photo. 
Cheers.. Dave 

[Anthony in NZ]

Yes Dave

She served from 51(??? I need to check my refs) until Feb 71 when she groundlooped at Kai Tak.  She was the last Auster left on strength and not repaired and retired due to age and support of spares etc.  Prior to that she was in the AAC before being rear ended by another Auster and going back to Rearsby for repairs to the rear fuse.  Then allocated RAF/RHKAAF

 

[Anthony in NZ]

10 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Very interesting Anthony, thanks for posting. Excuse my ignorance however are these photos part of the Hong Kong Air Force… just guessing from the HKG serial of the first photo. 
Cheers.. Dave 

Actually Dave, I brought her out of Brisbane from the Beaufort resto guys, Ralph Cusack specifically about 15 years ago in a very bad state, but she is nearly ready to recover now 

[Rabbit Leader]

That’s great news Anthony and I’m just a wee bit jealous of all these ‘modellers’ with real life 1:1 scale references on hand… where did I go wrong? 
Cheers.. Dave 
 

[Anthony in NZ]

6 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

That’s great news Anthony and I’m just a wee bit jealous of all these ‘modellers’ with real life 1:1 scale references on hand… where did I go wrong? 
Cheers.. Dave 
 

LOL, you didnt mate!  It is not as glamourous as it sounds...believe me.  Maybe when she is flying and I am destitute from having all the money sucked out of me and poured into a silver, yellow and dayglo striped money pit I might enjoy her.  Probably my son will end up flying me around as I will be bent over and arthritic.  Although I do enjoy it, especially fitting her back out with all her old military equipment and radios