AK 3rd Gen Paint Trouble - More AK Headaches

[Ray_W]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:00 PM, dogsbody said:

Is there anything in particular I should be aware of/look out for?

 

Hi Chris,

 

I have had similar experience  to Gaz  @GazB  regarding AK Real Color. I have sprayed it a lot and really like the stuff. I usually thin with AK's intended High Compatibility Thinner and never had any issue. Found it marvelously self levelling. Dries quick, thin and hardy. The 50/50 recommendation is a good start although I am never as scientific in terms of ratio, moreso watching how the paint is actually laying down. I have also sprayed Real Color thinned with Mr Color Leveling Thinner (MLT) with no issue. I am really in to lacquers and the Real Color works and complements Mr Color, Tamiya Lacquer, MRP and Hataka Orange Line. Sprays nicely over my preferred undercoat Mr Finishing Surfacer 1500 (usually Black). Easy black basing. No issue coating with lacquer clear finishes such as Gunze GX-100 and 114 or the alcohol aqueous paints such as Mr Hobby Color or the traditional Tamiya acrylics. 

 

Colour accuracy may be brought into question (typical AK) but for me, if an issue, I modify it. 

 

Real Color - an AK product that does work for me.

 

As to Gaz's OP. AK 3G. Note for those who do not realise that this is a different chemistry to Real Color. Different product. The 3G being a vinyl acrylic. I do not spray the stuff but based on my brush painting experience I think that the spraying would be a challenge. If it involves too much playing around with special brews and difficulty with airbrush cleaning. All the while ensuring you do not mix chemistries, thinners and other complexity.  Besides, if I want a similar chemistry, then I would use Lifecolor with good colour matches (generally). A paint I have come to also really like - spray or brush. 

 

With the brush painting. I could not find any really advantage in the AK 3G. It is sort of OK - brush marks, funny stringing,. I am sure with perseverance I can get it to behave like I want, but again, too much experimentation to make it work when I can use Vallejo Model Color and Citadel Colour with water and away we go.

 

If I was forced to spray the AK 3G, I would definitely be starting with their recommended thinner - AK11500 3G Acrylic Thinner (Improved Formula). Bed that down and then play with other options if you wish. 

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

[DaddyO]

For what it's worth I'll add my experiences of the AK acrylics.

 

I'm an experienced brush painted, but a relative newbie to spraying acrylics and have used mainly Vallejo or Andrea in the past. Last couple of models I've used the AK ones simply because they had the colours I was after at the time 🙂 

 

I use an old Paasche F airbrush and try to spray at around 15-22psi. usually For mixing all my acrylics I use distilled water and add a drop or two of Vallejo flow improver to the cup. I mix the paint to a milky consistency and adjust if it's puddling or spattering until I get a nice even spray coverage. I dry between coats with a hairdryer and clean the airbrush by stripping down at the end of the session in clean water.

Usually find around 5 or 6 coats is enough to get an even finish, but lighter ones need a coat or two more to cover a dark colour underneath. Can't say that I've had any special issues with the AK stuff compared to the others and it brushes fine for touch ups. NB - it does look a bit transparent initially when brushed, but dries okay.

 

Paul

[dogsbody]

I have a bottle of Mr. Color Leveling Thinner, too, so I guess I'm ready to try out the AK Real.

 

Now I just have to decide which kit to build. So many choices.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Ray_W]

33 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Now I just have to decide which kit to build. So many choices.

 

A good problem to have. Have fun!

[PhantomBigStu]

I'm liking the 3rd gen paints, aside from issue that a few colours aren't quite what they claim to be, whats their gloss varnish like, I need some more and retailer whose black friday sales I was just browsing stock it.....edit just seen the price, near enough a tenner for 100ml, can get 300ml of xtracrlyix for including the postage

Edited November 25, 2022 by PhantomBigStu

[GazB]

On 11/23/2022 at 11:09 AM, Ray_W said:

 

Hi Chris,

 

I have had similar experience  to Gaz  @GazB  regarding AK Real Color. I have sprayed it a lot and really like the stuff. I usually thin with AK's intended High Compatibility Thinner and never had any issue. Found it marvelously self levelling. Dries quick, thin and hardy. The 50/50 recommendation is a good start although I am never as scientific in terms of ratio, moreso watching how the paint is actually laying down. I have also sprayed Real Color thinned with Mr Color Leveling Thinner (MLT) with no issue. I am really in to lacquers and the Real Color works and complements Mr Color, Tamiya Lacquer, MRP and Hataka Orange Line. Sprays nicely over my preferred undercoat Mr Finishing Surfacer 1500 (usually Black). Easy black basing. No issue coating with lacquer clear finishes such as Gunze GX-100 and 114 or the alcohol aqueous paints such as Mr Hobby Color or the traditional Tamiya acrylics. 

 

Colour accuracy may be brought into question (typical AK) but for me, if an issue, I modify it. 

 

Real Color - an AK product that does work for me.

 

As to Gaz's OP. AK 3G. Note for those who do not realise that this is a different chemistry to Real Color. Different product. The 3G being a vinyl acrylic. I do not spray the stuff but based on my brush painting experience I think that the spraying would be a challenge. If it involves too much playing around with special brews and difficulty with airbrush cleaning. All the while ensuring you do not mix chemistries, thinners and other complexity.  Besides, if I want a similar chemistry, then I would use Lifecolor with good colour matches (generally). A paint I have come to also really like - spray or brush. 

 

With the brush painting. I could not find any really advantage in the AK 3G. It is sort of OK - brush marks, funny stringing,. I am sure with perseverance I can get it to behave like I want, but again, too much experimentation to make it work when I can use Vallejo Model Color and Citadel Colour with water and away we go.

 

If I was forced to spray the AK 3G, I would definitely be starting with their recommended thinner - AK11500 3G Acrylic Thinner (Improved Formula). Bed that down and then play with other options if you wish. 

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

I KNEW it was like a vinyl! The way it would web and spit reminded me of what the One Shot primer would do after a while of spraying, only the AK stuff would do it immediately. I never confirmed it until I read this.

 

Gaz

[Gisbod]

I tried their gloss and satin varnish, very disappointed, very inconsistent spray.

 

MRP are the best paints I’ve ever used for airbrushing - by a mile.

 

Guy

[GazB]

I tried giving these another go after watching a build video where someone used them. By all appearances, they went down look like Tamiya paints. Good coverage, easy spray. No pooling, no spitting. Ratio was 30 paint to 70 thinner, with a bit of flow improver. Great. Gave it a try. It decided to both speckle and pool, and then it tip dried on the third pull back. Tried a 40/60 ratio. Still too wet. Tried a 50/50 ratio. Too thick. There's literally no sweet spot with the stuff. Other paints always have that spot where they just work, but 3rd Gen really doesn't. That's multiple vids I've watched with ratios (because God forbid AK ever officially gives you instructions) and none of them work on my end. Even when my ratio is a little off with say Mig Ammo or Hataka, and a little on the thin side, they still lay down and critically, actually leave the airbrush smoothly. 3rd Gen doesn't. Its kinda laughable reading the formula blurb on the bottle mentioning how they 'beat all other acrylic paints', that they 'don't clog or tip dry', and they 'dry quickly'. None of those things rang true during my test. 

 

Incredibly frustrating, and I figure the new Dual Exo stuff they're currently advertising is probably the same deal. It'll be the 'best paint ever!' but they'll give you no direction on usage and it'll probably be a nightmare to use. 

 

Gaz 

Edited December 5, 2022 by GazB

[George Norman]

Hi Gazb,

 

I had exactly the same trouble at the start on the 3rd Gen stuff, Watched the vids extolling the vies on these paints and came away first go Disappointed.

 

However, was using a Bottom feed airbrush, I did have a top feed one bough serval years ago and switched to that and have had no trouble since, I also noticed that the demo-ers are mixing the paint up externally not in the AB colour up.

 

The switch of Air Brush Type and the mixing change I now have no issues.

 

I also read lads a setting the paint down with no primer and were demo-ing putting Tamiya tape over it and lifting it with no pulling off of the paint, tried it myself and it worked but I notice that the paint cover is very delicate and subject to being scratched off easily which you can see in the pictures below.

 

I'll try with either Humbrol 1 or Ultimate primer on the next Gannet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

goes down nice though

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by George Norman

[GazB]

3 hours ago, George Norman said:

Hi Gazb,

 

I had exactly the same trouble at the start on the 3rd Gen stuff, Watched the vids extolling the vies on these paints and came away first go Disappointed.

 

However, was using a Bottom feed airbrush, I did have a top feed one bough serval years ago and switched to that and have had no trouble since, I also noticed that the demo-ers are mixing the paint up externally not in the AB colour up.

 

The switch of Air Brush Type and the mixing change I now have no issues.

 

I also read lads a setting the paint down with no primer and were demo-ing putting Tamiya tape over it and lifting it with no pulling off of the paint, tried it myself and it worked but I notice that the paint cover is very delicate and subject to being scratched off easily which you can see in the pictures below.

 

I'll try with either Humbrol 1 or Ultimate primer on the next Gannet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

goes down nice though

 

 

 

Hi George. 

 

I use a gravity fed airbrush, though, and while I usually mix up in the cup, this time I specifically did it separate. I didn't apply a primer to the piece of styrene sheet I was testing on, but the flow from the airbrush was still super poor no matter what ratio I mixed it in

 

Gaz

[George Norman]

Thats Weird for sure. I am not to Scientific about the ratio or Thinners to Paint, Just have it possibly thinner than milk and leave very little paint out when I spray. I do use the AK thinnners though,

[GazB]

2 hours ago, George Norman said:

Thats Weird for sure. I am not to Scientific about the ratio or Thinners to Paint, Just have it possibly thinner than milk and leave very little paint out when I spray. I do use the AK thinnners though,

Same here. The 3rd Gen thinner, and the 3rd Gen retarder. Thinned to a milk like consistency. Paint speckles badky, but then also pools up. It's so weird.

 

Gaz

[George Norman]

I actually stick in more thinners and let out tiny amount of paint onto the surface. Takes Ages though to cover a large area.

l

Edited December 9, 2022 by George Norman

[George Norman]

Just tried the AK Black Primer this week, let for 72hrs to dry (they recommend 24)  While they go down nice and flat they also scratch off very easily. No good TBH. Especially for a primer. Any Videos I have watched don't mention this at all.

Edited December 16, 2022 by George Norman

[cmatthewbacon]

1 hour ago, George Norman said:

Just tried the AK Black Primer this week, let for 72hrs to dry (they recommend 24)  While they go down nice and flat they also scratch of very easily. No good TBH. Especially for a primer. Any Videos I have watched don't mention this at all.

Same problem for me… they just don’t seem to “key” to the plastic at all, despite being thinned with lacquer thinner…

best,

M.

[GazB]

Genuinely feels like the paint I watch people in vids use is entirely different to what I have. It won't be, but it sure feels that way. 

 

Gaz

[Flesk]

I've also had issues with 3rd. gen acrylics when it came to airbrushing. I have tried everything from black (always easier to airbrush darker colors due to pigment size) to white and fluorescent orange (larger pigment size, harder to spray).

 

These have gone through my sparmax sp-35x (0.35 mm.) and my Mr. Procon Boy FWA Platinum (0.2 mm.). Tried varying thinning ratios and air pressures. I initially had the same results as here, sputtering, clogging and having to deep clean the airbrushes (spent several hours cleaning threads on the nozzle of my Procon Boy).

 

When using optivisors I realized that I had thread-like bits of paints when mixxed with the thinner. I always mix outside the airbrush cup, so these were easy to spot. For all other paints (vallejo, tamiya, gunze, alclad etc) I usually stir with the tamiya metal stirring rod or something similar. What enabled me to spray these AK 3rd. gen paints was to mix the paint witth the 3rd. gen thinner in a cup using a brush rather than a stick. Stirring with a brush really well and using more thinner that I thought was needed, solved the issues of airbrushing this paint.

 

Aditionally (and this goes for every paint brand), paints will have to be thinned to different ratios based on color, although some are more forgiving. In AK's case with the 3rd. gen paints, stirring and mixing properly with a brush is absolitely vital I have found.

 

On the note of Real Color, these are easy as hell to work with. Just mix with MLT and spray away. I have found their dunkelgrau to be too dark (shoudln't these account for SMF?) but other than that they work well.

 

In summary for the 3rd. gens:

• Thin generously outside airbrush cup
• Mix very well with a brush.

My local hobby store worker told me that their 3rd. gen thinner is made in conjunction with the paints, hence it's supposed to be superior in that regard. Don't know if that is for selling more thinner, but it's perhaps worth a thought. It smells like alcohol, same as the ammo thinner, so I believe the alcohol-components make the paints need to be stirred very well. Vallejo's thinner smells differently and seems to be more compatible with most vinyl acrylic paints, moreso than AK and AMMO.

[Tim R-T-C]

Well for brush painting I find these paints to be very easy to use - simply thin with a little water.

 

However I'm not very convinced by the colour matching. This is my attempt to use the 'RAF Ocean Grey' and 'RAF Dark Green' combo 😟

 

[GazB]

On 1/15/2023 at 4:44 PM, Tim R-T-C said:

Well for brush painting I find these paints to be very easy to use - simply thin with a little water.

 

However I'm not very convinced by the colour matching. This is my attempt to use the 'RAF Ocean Grey' and 'RAF Dark Green' combo 😟

 

Hey, Tim. I've found they're okay for brush painting (though I haven't tried anything large).

 

Are the colours potentially too light?

 

Gaz

[Tim R-T-C]

4 hours ago, GazB said:

Hey, Tim. I've found they're okay for brush painting (though I haven't tried anything large).

 

Are the colours potentially too light?

 

Gaz

 

Not just the lightness, but some of the tones are just incorrect. The RAF Dark Green lacks an olive tinge it should have and their Dark Sea Grey is similarly a flat grey without the green/blue tinge it should display.

 

Not enough of an expert to comment on other colours in their range though.

[GazB]

41 minutes ago, Tim R-T-C said:

 

Not just the lightness, but some of the tones are just incorrect. The RAF Dark Green lacks an olive tinge it should have and their Dark Sea Grey is similarly a flat grey without the green/blue tinge it should display.

 

Not enough of an expert to comment on other colours in their range though.

That's unfortunate

 

Gaz

[Willybomb]

I'm also having all sorts of dramas with the AK 3rd gen.

 

I got the Auscam set for some WIFs and found I couldn't get it to go through my AB with any sort of reliability with any sort of thinners.  As mentioned above, there's no sweet spot, and nothing really thins it that well.  Water, MLT, X-20A, these all gunk it up in the AB.  AK thinner works *ok*, but the 3rd Gen Thinner works a bit better.

 

My best results have been using *lots* of Vallejo AB Flow Improver with a bit of 3rd gen Thinner.  Oddly enough, once I get towards the bottom of the cup, it starts to spray nicely but can flood just as easily.  I've taken to drying the paint with a hairdryer.  I've noticed here and in the videos people are really giving this stuff a hard stir, maybe I need to do that.

 

If anything, the best way to use these is on a wet pallet and handbrush.  They really are brilliant for that.

 

But, overall, I'm not a fan.  I've used lots of other things in my AB, but as far as cleanup and ease of use I think I'll start sticking with Vallejo Model Air.

 

Airbrushed:

 

 

 

 

 

Handbrushed:

[GazB]

4 hours ago, Willybomb said:

I'm also having all sorts of dramas with the AK 3rd gen.

 

I got the Auscam set for some WIFs and found I couldn't get it to go through my AB with any sort of reliability with any sort of thinners.  As mentioned above, there's no sweet spot, and nothing really thins it that well.  Water, MLT, X-20A, these all gunk it up in the AB.  AK thinner works *ok*, but the 3rd Gen Thinner works a bit better.

 

My best results have been using *lots* of Vallejo AB Flow Improver with a bit of 3rd gen Thinner.  Oddly enough, once I get towards the bottom of the cup, it starts to spray nicely but can flood just as easily.  I've taken to drying the paint with a hairdryer.  I've noticed here and in the videos people are really giving this stuff a hard stir, maybe I need to do that.

 

If anything, the best way to use these is on a wet pallet and handbrush.  They really are brilliant for that.

 

But, overall, I'm not a fan.  I've used lots of other things in my AB, but as far as cleanup and ease of use I think I'll start sticking with Vallejo Model Air.

 

Airbrushed:

 

 

 

 

 

Handbrushed:

 

 

Seems like its all the common issues, Willy. I still buy the colours for hand painting little details and the like, but I had zero luck with airbrushing, except for one instance when I mixed in some of their yellow with some Mig Ammo, and it sprayed without any noticeable problem. I also found it weird how one of the metallic colours sprayed fine, but almost nothing else did regardless of how it was thinned. I still don't know how the people showing Youtube use of it are actually thinning it down, because the ratios (when they do tell you) don't work.

 

Gaz

[TheKinksFan]

On 11/04/2023 at 16:04, Willybomb said:

If anything, the best way to use these is on a wet pallet and handbrush.  They really are brilliant for that.

 

But, overall, I'm not a fan.  I've used lots of other things in my AB, but as far as cleanup and ease of use I think I'll start sticking with Vallejo Model Air.

I, like you and the majority, have come to the same conclusion. It wouldn't be so annoying if AK hadn't in their typical fashion been hyping and over-promising how their acrylic paint is the best thing ever, in every imaginable away. Which is ridiculous, and basically is just lying. An acrylic water-based paint can never be that good in every aspect.

But it is a pity that it is such a PITA to spray, as they have lots of colours that other hobby paint lines don't. I nowadays spray mostly lacquers or Tamiya acrylic / Mr. Hobby thinned with Mr Leveling Thinner, but sometimes I want to spray a certain colour that is not available as a true airbrush paint. I sprayed a Sopwith Camel nose and tail with AK 3rd Gen Wine Red, very nice colour, but I had to unclog the nozzle several times.

Model Air compared to these sprays like a dream, at least until there's builp up on the needle. When I'm spraying these it sound like my airbrush has turned into a sprinkler.

On 11/04/2023 at 21:05, GazB said:

I still don't know how the people showing Youtube use of it are actually thinning it down, because the ratios (when they do tell you) don't work.

It's obviously not meant for airbrushing, they are just greedy and want to sell more paint. When you add thinner, any thinner, to the paint, and swirl the mixture in the cup, it doesn't look right and behave right. I t has to be something complicated with the chemistry, pigment sizes etc. 

[GazB]

3 hours ago, TheKinksFan said:

I, like you and the majority, have come to the same conclusion. It wouldn't be so annoying if AK hadn't in their typical fashion been hyping and over-promising how their acrylic paint is the best thing ever, in every imaginable away. Which is ridiculous, and basically is just lying. An acrylic water-based paint can never be that good in every aspect.

But it is a pity that it is such a PITA to spray, as they have lots of colours that other hobby paint lines don't. I nowadays spray mostly lacquers or Tamiya acrylic / Mr. Hobby thinned with Mr Leveling Thinner, but sometimes I want to spray a certain colour that is not available as a true airbrush paint. I sprayed a Sopwith Camel nose and tail with AK 3rd Gen Wine Red, very nice colour, but I had to unclog the nozzle several times.

Model Air compared to these sprays like a dream, at least until there's builp up on the needle. When I'm spraying these it sound like my airbrush has turned into a sprinkler.

It's obviously not meant for airbrushing, they are just greedy and want to sell more paint. When you add thinner, any thinner, to the paint, and swirl the mixture in the cup, it doesn't look right and behave right. I t has to be something complicated with the chemistry, pigment sizes etc. 

I honestly wish they hadn't ceased adding to their Real Color line. I had lots of trouble with that in the beginning (largely, in part, to AKs dubious marketing claims that said it could be thinned with water and Tamiya X-20A), but after watching some videos other modellers did I was able to get the hang of using it, and I quite liked it. But then they went all in on 3rd Gen, which really feels like it was designed as a gaming paint for brushing miniatures more than anything else. 

 

I like Mig Ammo stuff but I always have trouble spraying it properly. It tends to go on a little too thin, or dries satin/shiny more than matt. Hataka acrylics have worked quite nicely for me so far. I found them pretty easy to use, and they do a fairly nice variety of colours, including some more accurate modern armour shades (lot of companies fluctuate on modern sand colours for American vehicles, or NATO green [they tend to use the Euro NATO shade of the colour in the RAL rather than FS range]). 

 

AK, though, whenever they release something new, I'm very cautious of it. It wasn't helped by my original RC issues being outright ignored by them when I sent emails.

 

Gaz