Question about Douglas Bader's Spitfire Mk Va, D*B, s/n W3185

[Tail-Dragon]

I'm thinking of building Bader's last Spitfire Va, D*B, W3185, using Eduard's Spit IIa, and Lifelike decals 48026 (Spitfire pt 4).

I understand that the aircraft was lost just 12 days after being issued, so wear would be minimal, but I have a few questions that I hope someone here will have some knowledge of.

The decals set has Bader's 'boot kicking Hitler' marking and a reference to a photo, but no photo. It also does not have the "Lord Lloyd 1" presentation script on the L/H cowl. Would this be correct?

Also, would this aircraft have an antenna wire, or an internal antenna inside the mast, and would it have the IFF 'cheesecutter' antenna's?

 

Thanks in advance,

Colin

[tempestfan]

I can't answer your specific questions, but the II has a different oil cooler (semi vs. fully circular) as compared to the V, and there may be detail differences on the cowling between Merlin XXs and 45ff's.

[Rolls-Royce]

Alamy.com has this profile:

[stever219]

5 minutes ago, Rolls-Royce said:

Alamy.com has this profile:

Never trust a profile without at least one supporting photograph or a comprehensive contemporary description.  That profile appears to be uncredited; for now I’d trust it about as far as I can throw the universe.

[Tail-Dragon]

53 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

I can't answer your specific questions, but the II has a different oil cooler (semi vs. fully circular) as compared to the V, and there may be detail differences on the cowling between Merlin XXs and 45ff's.

The Mk IIa kit has the correct oil cooler on sprue 'S' - parts 9, 10, 11, and 12.  Common sprue with the Mk V. 

Also the fuselage and cowl sprues are the same ('C' - external windscreen armor fuselage) for the Mk II and the Mk V kits.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Tail-Dragon
spelling

[alt-92]

48 minutes ago, stever219 said:

 That profile appears to be uncredited; for now I’d trust it about as far as I can throw the universe.

Surprised they're not selling it, actually. 

[Graham Boak]

For Merlin XX read Merlin XII.  Mk. IIs should have the small bulge for the Coffman starter, not sure about the Mk.V.  I don't think so, but I gather some had the bulge anyway because Castle Bromwich had lots of them

[tempestfan]

41 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

For Merlin XX read Merlin XII.  Mk. IIs should have the small bulge for the Coffman starter, not sure about the Mk.V.  I don't think so, but I gather some had the bulge anyway because Castle Bromwich had lots of them

Sorry for the double X...  

[Peter Roberts]

Colin, this prior thread may be of help?

 

 

I am not aware of any photos of the plane showing the presentation name, but this was often on the starboard side. The photo in the linked thread does suggest that the 'boot kicking Hitler' emblem was carried. There is another photo of Bader exiting a Spitfire, credited as this aircraft, which shows some non-standard rear fuselage camouflage and no aerial to the fin. The grommet for the IFF is showing but hard to see the wire - not unusual, I would suggest IFF carried. There is some suggestion that the presentation name was painted over, but not sure if this is speculation or known.

 

Here is another link. If you scroll down a bit you will find the pic of Bader exiting his Spitfire. Looks like a W/C pennant beneath the cockpit.

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28974

 

Edit - Also it is worth noting that this was not a near new aircraft. It first flew in May 1941, and was lost in August that year.

 

HTH

 

PR

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Peter Roberts

[Tail-Dragon]

1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

C

I am not aware of any photos of the plane showing the presentation name, but this was often on the starboard side. The photo in the linked thread does suggest that the 'boot kicking Hitler' emblem was carried. There is another photo of Bader exiting a Spitfire, credited as this aircraft, which shows some non-standard rear fuselage camouflage and no aerial to the fin. The grommet for the IFF is showing but hard to see the wire - not unusual, I would suggest IFF carried. There is some suggestion that the presentation name was painted over, but not sure if this is speculation or known.

 

Here is another link. If you scroll down a bit you will find the pic of Bader exiting his Spitfire. Looks like a W/C pennant beneath the cockpit.

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28974

 

Edit - Also it is worth noting that this was not a near new aircraft. It first flew in May 1941, and was lost in August that year.

 

HTH

 

PR

 

 

Very interesting, thanks!

 

In the linked thread, Peter Roberts also wrote -

"This information according to 'Gifts of War'. Also according to 'Gifts of War', W3185 was NOT a new aircraft when Bader began flying it. After passing through 39 MU it served with 145 Squadron, receiving damage on 22 July 1941. It was returned to 41 Sqn on 28 July but taken over by 616 Sqn and became Baders' plane. Apparently photos of the aircraft coded 'D-B' show the presentation name has been obliterated."

 

All good info and much appreciated!  So, it seems that W3185 has a fair amount of wear, a tapered mast without an antenna wire, IFF 'cheesecutters', an overpainted "Lord Lloyd 1" script on the starboard side, and marked as shown on the Lifelike decals sheet - 

 

 

And while the airframe was painted in an "A" scheme, the rudder appears to have been replaced by one painted in the mirror image "B" scheme - the result of the damage on July 22 possibly.

 

 

Thanks everyone, much appreciated.

 

Colin

Edited August 12, 2021 by Tail-Dragon
added info

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

W3185 Mark Va, "Lord Lloyd", Taken on Charge 30 April 1941, 39 MU 11 May 1941, (unreadable, Stawell down?) dispersal 4 June 1941, 145 Sqn 30 June 1941, A.S.T. "A" S.A.S 17 July 1941, 145 Sqn 22 July 1941, 41 Sqn 25? July 1941, 616 Sqn 24? July 1941, A.S.T. S.A.S 29 July 1941, 145 Sqn 30 July 1941, SOC 17 August 1941.

 

W3187 was "Lord Llyod II".

[Graham Boak]

10 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Sorry for the double X...  

As long as it isn't XXXX.

[Magpie22]

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

As long as it isn't XXXX.

Nothing wrong with XXXX. It's not a bad drop. Castlemaine XXXX ale was in much demand by the RAAF squadrons in WWII.

 

[Graham Boak]

Like modellers, each to their own - nice picture!  A nice cold lager can be very refreshing on a hot day, but in Britain's less tropical climes there is more taste to a traditional ale.  Plus, the quality of most lager sold in the UK is dismal. 

[Tail-Dragon]

6 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

Nothing wrong with XXXX. It's not a bad drop. Castlemaine XXXX ale was in much demand by the RAAF squadrons in WWII.

 

No points for a hard landing!

 

It reminds me of a story a friend who served on HMCS Bonaventure used to tell. When in the Caribbean, the S2F Trackers would return from a trip to Jamaica with the sonobouy tubes loaded with bottles. A hard landing resulted in them taxying forward, drooling rum out of the nacelles!