Help in identifying this Fw 190A

[Sturmovik]

Hello guys, 

I have the Aeromaster decal sheet "Reich Defense Part 3" in 1:48, and got interested in the Fw 190A-8 "Yellow 1 and Bars" from JG 11. The painting profile suggests the aircraft was painted in RLM 81/82/76, with a replacement empennage painted in RLM 75/76.

However, I found this photo of an aircraft very similar to the one in the sheet. This one looks to be much more different than an A-8 (doesn't seem to have the 13mm machinguns in the nose, and lacks the later 190 landing gear doors). But it does have the blown canopy, characteristic of late-war 190s. 

Guiding myself with the colour profile of the Eduard Fw 190A-6 for Anton Hackl's aircraft (from JG 11 too), I assumed the empennage of the aircraft I'm interested in is white, with a replacement rudder, and painted in RLM 74/75. This aircraft also has the earlier landing gear doors.

Could this one be Frankenplane, with a mix of parts to make one functional 190?

 

 

 

Any help in identifying this aircraft will be welcomed!

 

P.S: I intend to build the Eduard new tool 48th 190A-8, and the beginning (and acquisition) of this project depends on the solution to the identification of this plane.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Sturmovik

[Sturmovik]

Edit: Found a colour profile that mentions this aircraft is actually an Fw 190A-9. Luckily Eduard includes the A-9 cooling fan and propeller in their Weekend boxing.

 

Still, further help is welcomed!

[Graham Boak]

An A-9 would also have the 13mm.  Could this just be an earlier A with a later canopy?  The simple black cross suggests late in the war, but I'm not sure that the white tail for the leader lasted that long?  Someone will have a better idea.  However, the odd thing is that jagged appearance of the white (if that is what it is) at the transport joint.

[Sturmovik]

@Graham Boak yes, I checked again and it does look like it has the 13mm machineguns. 

Maybe, instead of having a white empennage, it has a late RLM 76 (84).

I also found this:

 

 

Looks much more plausible than what I described earlier. But, yellow rudder and nose so late in the war?

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Sturmovik

[Werdna]

I'm doubtful about the 'white' tail, mainly because the hakenkreuz outline (in white) is visible over the top of whatever colour it is.

[Bozothenutter]

Might the rudder look darker because it is slightly turned?

Wouldn't be the first time!

[Touvdal]

This photo was taken in Denmark.

 

Focke-Wulf Fw 190. 11./JG 1, 1+-, captured at Skrydstrup, Denmark, May 1945. 

 

Actually i posteded it on a website i had some 25 years ago called Luftwaffe in Denmark, and have since surfaced regularily in diffenret forums/sites.

 

Still have the copy of the original.

 

Cheers

Jes

[Werdna]

5 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

Might the rudder look darker because it is slightly turned?

Wouldn't be the first time!

 

Well spotted.  It does appear to be slightly turned, and given where the shadows are falling (to me it looks as though they are cast more to the stbd side of the a/c), this might explain the darker tone..

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The "1" does not have a red frame and it most probably is another colour than the Balken on the Reichsverteidigungsband.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited August 11, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Sturmovik]

15 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

Might the rudder look darker because it is slightly turned?

Wouldn't be the first time!

 

Could be, but how do we explain the lighter colour at the bottom of the rudder? The colour is also too light for any of the early/late camouflage colours.

 

 

9 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The "1" does not have a red frame and it most probably is another colour than the Balken on the Reichsverteidigungsband.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

Possibly, the outline of the "1" is in black, just as it comes in the Aeromaster sheet.

 

Thank you all for the help! I've narrowed down everything I needed, so I'll be buying the Eduard Weekend 190A-8 and build it as an A-9. It'll be painted as either this scheme, or as one of the schemes I found on the Fw 190A-9 from Eduard (Chevron and Bars, with yellow rudder and yellow nose ring).

 

[Werdna]

20 minutes ago, Sturmovik said:

Could be, but how do we explain the lighter colour at the bottom of the rudder? The colour is also too light for any of the early/late camouflage colours.

 

I would say that the lighter colour is likely a repaired section, or similar..

[MDriskill]

I've puzzled over this one for years! And have no definitive answers, but some points to note:

 

+ This aircraft definitely has the MG 131 guns in the nose, but lacks the "flat bulge" over the outer gun bay seen on most late radial 190's. My guess is it's an early A-8 with a later canopy retrofitted.

+ Both the "flat" and "bulged" canopies could be fit to any 190 - not proof of variant.

+ Three different props could be fit to any late 190 - also not proof of variant. This one does not appear to have the wide wood blades.

+ The small extension on the main landing gear cover has simply been removed (note the bright strip at the very bottom), so doesn't indicate an early variant.

+ (As an aside - not all A-9/F-9's had the 14-blade cooling fan. This gave problems, so many reverted to the previous 12-blade one.)

+ As noted above, the tail band and horizontal bar have neat dark outlines. The "1" does not, and might be interpreted as a lighter color (arrows).

+ The tail band has often been assumed to be yellow, and thus identified as JG 11. But it's much too narrow to be a proper late-war RVD band, so could also be a theater marking.

+ It appears to me the rudder has camo colors, but the rest of the tail has a new color applied. Note the lack of serial number and stenciling in this area (overpainted?), and how the light color does not follow the tail joint (circle). But...the fact that the hakenkreuz is so cleanly outlined, might argue the other direction!

+ The top cowl panel looks to be a lighter color than the side panel.

 

Now that I think about it, I vaguely recall seeing a second photo of this aircraft, and reading a convincing discussion of its identity...but of course have forgotten where!

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by MDriskill
Clarify opinion of probable variant

[tempestfan]

2 hours ago, MDriskill said:

Now that I think about it, I vaguely recall seeing a second photo of this aircraft, and reading a convincing discussion of its identity...but of course have forgotten where!

 

Something like this would be a natural for Luftwaffe im Fokus - possibly there? Regrettably I do not have the full run. --- I wonder why the artwork shown above depicts the band and bar as white and yellow, respectively. I see absolutely no tonal difference between them (which of course means nothing...).

 

By chance, I opened Rodeike in p. 257, which shows 2 pics of Cottbus-built A-7 340265 (SV+FM), which pranged on the flight from the factory. The fin is uniformly very pale (as above), and the rudder is identified as yellow. Funnily, the presumed repair patch above would tally with the region where the tail wheel intruded in the rudder.

P. 299 has a (hazy) pic of a presumed A-9 of II./JG 4 which also has similar (not quite as) heavy mottling on the fuselage with a very distinct break to a uniformly pale fin.

[G.R.Morrison]

This was the machine of Hptm. Helmut Wettstein, who led the 6./JG 54 from Feb. 1945 in the Kurland (Courland) pocket.  He claimed his 34., a Pe-2, 9.April 1945

 

There are 'before' (in Kurland, posing alongside this machine) and 'after' (arrival / surrender) photos of this one, but I do not use a photo-hosting service, so cannot insert any here.  I'd be happy to email the 'arrival' photo if you wish to send me a pm.

 

tempestfan, this one does not appear in Luftwaffe im Focus Nos.1-30 (No.31 is in the post), nor their 'Specials,' but the 'before' pic does appear in Frappé & Lorant's Le Fw 190, p.378 and in Barbas' Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, Vol. 2, p.68, and perhaps other, more-recent pubs.

 

Good luck with your build, GRM

[tempestfan]

28 minutes ago, G.R.Morrison said:

This was the machine of Hptm. Helmut Wettstein, who led the 6./JG 54 from Feb. 1945 in the Kurland (Courland) pocket.  He claimed his 34., a Pe-2, 9.April 1945

 

There are 'before' (in Kurland, posing alongside this machine) and 'after' (arrival / surrender) photos of this one, but I do not use a photo-hosting service, so cannot insert any here.  I'd be happy to email the 'arrival' photo if you wish to send me a pm.

 

tempestfan, this one does not appear in Luftwaffe im Focus Nos.1-30 (No.31 is in the post), nor their 'Specials,' but the 'before' pic does appear in Frappé & Lorant's Le Fw 190, p.378 and in Barbas' Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, Vol. 2, p.68, and perhaps other, more-recent pubs.

 

Good luck with your build, GRM

Call it a stroke of luck, but I received the Barbas set "from Athens with love" just a week ago 🙂 The "1" was just that tad cleaner in Kurland... Having leafed through Rodeike, I was inclined to throw JG 54 into the ring, but was afraid of showing my ignorance. I guess next time a Luftwaffe ident topic comes up we'll ping you. Just the other week, on a different forum, the topic of 88D-1 F6+AL came up (in relation to the Alfa LaGG-3 and Revell 88A-4), and guess what happened when googling this - you may recall 😉

[FalkeEins]

45 minutes ago, G.R.Morrison said:

and perhaps other, more-recent pubs.

 

 

 

yep, its featured in the 'Luftwaffe Gallery' Special issue on JG 54

[MDriskill]

On 8/12/2021 at 1:35 PM, G.R.Morrison said:

This was the machine of Hptm. Helmut Wettstein, who led the 6./JG 54 from Feb. 1945 in the Kurland (Courland) pocket.  He claimed his 34., a Pe-2, 9.April 1945

 

Thank you! Will archive for future updates of my faulty memory banks. For the record, Schiffer's US edition of Barbas's Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces II has the two photos below, on pp. 90 and 91.

 

I would guess the aircraft is an early-production A-8 (it appears to lack the "flat bulge" over the outboard wing gun bay seen on later A-8's and F-8's; well shown in the OP's photos so I edited my first post), which has been retrofitted with the later style canopy. These pics don't help with the tail color (!), but verifies the nose MG 131's and metal prop blades at least. Also note the lack of an ETC rack or drop tank in the "before" photo:

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by MDriskill

[tank152]

On 12/08/2021 at 19:21, FalkeEins said:

 

yep, its featured in the 'Luftwaffe Gallery' Special issue on JG 54

It's also in Luftwaffe Colours Vol 5 section 2 "War in the East 1944-1945"  Photo of Hptm Wettstein posing in from of it.

[SafetyDad]

On 12/08/2021 at 18:35, G.R.Morrison said:

This was the machine of Hptm. Helmut Wettstein, who led the 6./JG 54 from Feb. 1945 in the Kurland (Courland) pocket.  He claimed his 34., a Pe-2, 9.April 1945

 

 

Might the tail therefore be yellow to identify him as the Staffel leader? The visible white outline to the Hakenkreuz would seem to prove that it's not white (as @Werdna has stated above).

Other elements of JG54 are known to have done this - Hans Dortenmann's Fw 190D-9 was marked in this way for a time. 

 

Of course, there's a problem in that the tone of the aircraft bar and fuselage band appear darker than the tail (and if they are yellow too what does that mean?). However the tail and the aircraft number '1' seem  to match?

 

Just my 2p

 

SD

 

 

[dov]

The color of the tail:

You know the late war RLM76? This os a sort of sky color as during the days of BB in the RAF. You find it on lots of 109 K. 

I made a 190 D like this and a 109 K. There exost also many color fotos of this matter.

Happy modelling 

[MDriskill]

8 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Might the tail therefore be yellow to identify him as the Staffel leader? 

 

Of course, there's a problem in that the tone of the aircraft bar and fuselage band appear darker than the tail (and if they are yellow too what does that mean?). However the tail and the aircraft number '1' seem  to match?

Very possible IMHO! 

 

There were two "official" Luftwaffe yellows - colors 04 (a rich chrome yellow) and 27 (a more pale tone). And of course many other factors can vary the appearance of any color as applied. And if I'm correct about this machine being an early A-8, it might have been 8 months old or more when these shots were taken, and subject to quite a bit of re-painting, technical updates, etc.

 

This is really a reach, but if the number and fin are a lighter shade of yellow...then the rudder - which seems to match the tail band? - might be interpreted as the darker yellow, plus some repair patchwork.

Edited August 14, 2021 by MDriskill