Question as to German agent insertion ops Britain 1940-1941

[FinnAndersen]

1 hour ago, Dave Swindell said:

Surprised no one has mentioned Private Schulz yet?

I remember seeing that one. At the time I was greatly entertained.

 

However, (and definitely off topic) there was a real fraud attempt made in the KZ camp Sachsenhausen. The story was made into a film "Die Fälscher" that is recommendable. 

 

/Finn

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Hitler's Spies by David Kahn notes the following,

 

Colonel Theodor Rowehl, stared as a civilian working for the Abwehr in 1930, the unit eventually called the Experimental Post..  In 1936 it was taken over by the Luftwaffe and became the Squadron for Special Purposes, Staffel z.b.V Beim R.L.M. under the Luftwaffe General Staff 5th Branch (Intelligence) using Do17, Do215, He111, Hs130, Ju86, Ju88 and W.34 during its existence according to Barry Rosch.  Code T5 and did borrowing of aircraft at times, which means other codes noted in loss reports, K9, G2 and L2 may have been assigned to the unit or not.

By September 1939 the unit was 3 squadrons of 12 aircraft, possibly included types like the Fw200 and was renamed Reconnaissance Group to the CinC Luftwaffe, Fernaufklärungsgruppe des Oberbefehlshabers der Luftwaffe, AufklGrp OB der Lw, often called Kommando Rowehl.  Rosch lists 19 different types of aircraft used during its existence.

When air insertions were suddenly required the unit was used, with Captain Karl Edmund Gartenfeld playing a major part.  Seems air insertions into Britain and Ireland stopped in June 1941.  He111 dropping agents through a hole in the floor, some had to be helped out, some forced out, one shoved out after they became stuck.  Things like He115 dropping agents off in a remote bay.  First air insertion in July 1940?

 

U-boats coming close to shore, small boats "escaping" from Europe, claimed refugees  First U-boat insertion into Ireland on 12 June 1940, which resulted in one of the best pre war spies being taken into Irish custody the next day.

 

Kahn does not give a definitive list but concludes the British had control of all German spies in Britain usually from early on and the Irish captured quite a few as well.  Essentially Germany neglected Britain pre war and had to rush things in 1940, which further handicapped the effort, over and above faulty briefings, selecting people who turned themselves in as soon as possible etc.

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, noelh said:

That's interesting because the general consensus is that 12 Abwehr spies were landed in Eire during the war and all were caught. Often within hours after farcical situations like you described. One was actually Indian! 

 

I've never read anything about 50 spies being executed in NI. Nor indeed a 100 crossing to Britain. Do you have any references? That's very intriguing. 

 

Generally the activities usually of the Abwehr in the Irish Free State is now well documented by various authors but I've never read much about NI. 

 

I'm not sure about the Italian connection. Italians would have stuck out like a sore thumb both in Ireland and on arrival in Britain. That sounds a bit like a wartime rumour. 

 

. . . 

I do not want to hi-jack this thread with detail on this, but one, in about 1993 I met an elderly German gentleman who was in the German Embassy during the Hitler era. One of his jobs was to co-ordinate the German spies on the island

[Mr T]

The Germans suffered because once an agent was either turned or was a double agent, subsequent agents were caught because the Germans asked the agent under British control to help them. 

Poor training and rush seemed to be the undoing of several. For example an agent going into a pub at 9 am and asking for a beer. 

Of course there was Juan Pujol, one of the few people to be awarded an 0BE and given the Iron Cross for doing the same job at the same time. 

[Jochen Barett]

On 04/08/2021 at 05:49, 28ZComeback said:

Thank you all.  German spy Joseph Jacobs reported that he was flown in a “specially equipped Junkers aircraft”  which I believe was a Ju-88. I just wonder how the agent jumped from a Ju-88?  Thank you again. 

 

Funny the allknowing internet / google can't come up with a quick answer to this one.

 

There was a French/German movie https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/C'est_pas_toujours_du_caviar and a German TV series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Es_muss_nicht_immer_Kaviar_sein_(TV_series) losely based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Chapman and the claim is "On 16 December 1942, Chapman was flown to Britain in a Focke-Wulf bomber, converted for parachuting, from Le Bourget airfield." but I'm having a hard time to think which Focke-Wulf "bomber" type might be the type in question. In worst case the agents had lesser clues of airplane types than a six year old boy in the sixties and what really was used was a captured French plane in German livery.

 

Later in the war (source: the book "KG 200" by Stahl) the agents were put into containers (with parachutes) and dropped like bombs (from Ju 188), giving two advantages:

- no parachute traning for the agents neccessary (increased safety)

- the pilots did not have to deal with armed "schräge Vögel" on board their beloved plane (increased security)

 

https://www.dict.cc/?s=schräger+Vogel

I don't quite agree, a schräger Vogel is not only "odd" or "shady looking" or a "queer cstomer", he's "all of that and a little more", all in all "not trustworthy".

Edited August 6, 2021 by Jochen Barett
typo

[veg]

Agent zigzag the true story of double agent Eddie chapman. When he was flown over to England he states he came in a twin engined focke wulf with a three man crew one of which was a rear gunner in a glass house. Due to the date (1942)  and description I think it can only be an FW189.

Posted as I did 😁

[Black Knight]

I think I may remember reading something about the Germans using captured B.17s to fly in spies.

The B.17s retained their US colours and markings and the Germans put small crosses within the white stars. These B.17s joined the other stragglers going home after a raid. After dropping off their passenger they landed in France

[Peter Roberts]

 

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

In the 50s there was a best-seller called Spycatcher, by Oreste Pinto  (real name?) which described several cases, and claimed that the British intelligence was 100% successful in catching German agents in the UK.  I must admit assuming that, like Enigma, a fuller story might appear in recent years, but it seems not.  There have been stories describing German intelligence successes in the Middle East, although none that I've seen in Russia itself (as opposed to the Baltic states and perhaps the Ukraine?

 

Several references highlight the gap between Canaris and the Nazi Party, with some claiming him to be a British agent - this seems to me to be a bit over the top, but this is a murky business full of exaggeration alongside secrecy.

 

It is perhaps worth remembering that KG200 was delivering agents into France, and presumably elsewhere, even in the final months of the war. 

 

Have seen the suggestion about Canaris too Graham, but Hastings dismisses this, claiming he was simply incompetent which essentially made him look like an allied collaborator (!) 

 

Slightly off track, there was also some discussion about assassinating important Nazis - including Goring who was finally assessed as being of more benefit to the allied cause alive than dead. Canaris was probably in the same boat.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Peter Roberts

[28ZComeback]

I think this was discussed on another thread, but a FW-189 over England in 1942 would have been best suicide.  It was relatively slow, unarmed and short-ranged with almost no space for a passenger.  The only advantage it had was its small radar signature (that showed up as small plane). The better option would have been a Ju-88 or He-111.  Eddie was trying to save his neck in 1942, and the more “exotic” the plane, the more valuable he was as a prisoner. It’s very possible that he is embellished the story. 

[veg]

I totally agree that a fw189 would have been a pretty easy target even at night, however the RAF had been warned not to engage with targets in the specific areas, and looking at the levels of incompetence re insertion and extraction it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. I guess we will never know.

[Graham Boak]

Easier to believe that Chapman wasn't well-informed about German aircraft than an Fw 189 would be used to drop agents.  An equal or better case could be made for an Fw 58.  However, the RAF may have been told to steer clear but the Germans wouldn't know that,  Unless of course this was double bluff on top of double bluff...

[wombat]

Apparently some German agents were caught because their fake identity cards had the address in the continental style, street name before house number.

 

but it’s not as if the British did much better. Two senior SIS got themselves lured and captured very early in the war. At least one major SOE network was clearly blown but commanders refused to believe it and kept sending agents in to their doom. Quite possibly it was blown by the SIS. And that’s just in occupied countries, not the enemy homeland.

 

in fact there seems to be little to no detail of SIS operations in Germany itself, if there were any.

 

meanwhile, the soviets were merrily embedding moles throughout the establishment who would come into their own in the fifties and sixties...