What green and brown for soviet tanks?

[Doggy]

Hi all. 

Im currently working on this model

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/zvezda-3534-isu-122--391863

 

The colour guide and camouflage instructions are a bit sketchy. As far as I can make out it's a green with brown stripes. The instructions mentioned humbrol paints but the box suggests tamiya paints. 

I just bought this set https://www.everythingairbrush.com/product/vallejo-model-air-paint-set-soviet-wwii-camo-colors-71188/ and I'm wondering if the brown and green in my set are more authentic? 

I'm also having some difficulty figuring out the camouflage scheme, the box art and instructions differ slightly. 

Can you help me? 

 

Thanks. 

[Kingsman]

The place you need to go for Russian WW2 colours is http://www.4bogreen.com/

 

The Vallejo set you have is probably as good as any other brand.  I'm sure the relative merits of different brands could stimulate many pages of discussion.  But as the 4BO site will tell you, the formula for 4BO green allowed for considerable variation of the ingredients which would in turn have led to considerable color variation from yellowish green to almost Brunswick green.  No need for complex mixes involving a drop of this, a speck of that and a sprinkle of fairy dust.

 

Disruptive painting would be done at unit level according to where the unit was when they received their vehicles and there were no standardised patterns, so don't worry too much about that.  If you can find a photo to copy so much the better, but it is impossible to say that your scheme is "wrong".  If your scheme calls for "brown" that could be either Dark Brown 6K or Yellow Earth 7K.  6K didn't really stand out against 4BO at any distance, so 7K is perhaps more likely.   A 1942 instruction required 50% of the vehicle to remain 4BO with 25% each of 6K and 7K.

 

That being said, disruptive painting of Russian vehicles became increasingly uncommon as the war progressed and plain 4BO was very much the norm.

 

[Doggy]

Many thanks. 

 

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet/isu-122.php

My tank looks like the 3338 near the bottom but that's 2 greens and no brown. 

 

If one of the greens is 4bo, what would the second green be, just some random green? 

[Kingsman]

There was no second green in the Russian colour palette.  The colours were 4BO, 6K and 7K.  There is some question as to whether there was a 4BG Light Khaki and when and where it might have been used, and how different it might have been to 7K.  7K can be translated as "green-yellow" although its more common anglicised name is Yellow Earth..  So if I had to offer an opinion I would say that your ISU 3338 is meant to be 7K over 4BO.

 

Like the German camo paints, 6K and 7K were issued as pigment paste to be mixed with one of several solvents before application.  Also like the German colours, the final outcome would depend on the solvent used and the concentration.  Although not documented, I suppose it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that 6K and 7K could have been mixed in the field to produce a 3rd colour, but this would have been a brown not a green.

 

But this just shows that you should not trust any artwork on any site or in any book as definitive colour references.  There was very little colour photography in WW2 and it was unreliable because of green or blue colour shifts from the film of the time.  While colour imagery can be corrected (but against what baseline?), any artwork generated from monochrome photos can only ever be speculative.  Same with colourised photos.  And what you see on screen will be affected by the age, screen type, colour settings and interface type of your monitor.  And your own eyes.  Printed artwork wil only be an approximation because of the printing inks and process.

[Troy Smith]

37 minutes ago, Doggy said:

My tank looks like the 3338 near the bottom but that's 2 greens and no brown. 

 

There is a reason for my sig line re profiles.

 

37 minutes ago, Doggy said:

 

If one of the greens is 4bo, what would the second green be, just some random green? 

I  think @Das Abteilung  has covered this.  

 

AFAIK,  late war soviet armour was 4BO green, with added winter white, the use of the specific 6K and 7K seemed to be more used mid war.  The caption for 3338 says winter camo.  

59 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

That being said, disruptive painting of Russian vehicles became increasingly uncommon as the war progressed and plain 4BO was very much the norm.

 

It's always worth an image search

 

I stuck ISU-122 3338 into google..., and you have a reference photo.   There maybe another showing the side, maybe even a film still? 

 

So, the base is almost certainly 4BO, the disruptive is darker,  best bet is 6K dark Brown,   but given the image quality, that could just be some clean streaks on a muddy tank, note it's wet.   And, on my profile rant, the actual tank has a tarpaulin draped over the gun mantlet, and a bent up track guard on the right,  details that can add to a model.

 

Anyway, 6K is  seen here, and does make for a more interesting model.

 

both from 

https://live.warthunder.com/post/81112/ru/?comment=298092

 

also

inscription on the gun: "Forward to defeat the enemy!"
original text: "Вперед на разгром врага!"

 

There are some interesting winter schemes in your original link, which you could do.

 

HTH

 

[Kingsman]

Having seen the original image I would agree that it is actually most likely 6K over 4BO, esecially noting the terrain.  From the leafless trees it is winter but I wouldn't call this "winter" camo.  It is camo appropriate to dark, perhaps wooded, terrain.

 

So we circle back to not trusting interpretational artwork without corroboration, as Troy notes.  But even then you need to have an understanding of the possible and likely colours in the image(s).

[Doggy]

Many thanks guys.

[Doggy]

11 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

There is a reason for my sig line re profiles.

 

I  think @Das Abteilung  has covered this.  

 

AFAIK,  late war soviet armour was 4BO green, with added winter white, the use of the specific 6K and 7K seemed to be more used mid war.  The caption for 3338 says winter camo.  

 

It's always worth an image search

 

I stuck ISU-122 3338 into google..., and you have a reference photo.   There maybe another showing the side, maybe even a film still? 

 

So, the base is almost certainly 4BO, the disruptive is darker,  best bet is 6K dark Brown,   but given the image quality, that could just be some clean streaks on a muddy tank, note it's wet.   And, on my profile rant, the actual tank has a tarpaulin draped over the gun mantlet, and a bent up track guard on the right,  details that can add to a model.

 

Anyway, 6K is  seen here, and does make for a more interesting model.

 

both from 

https://live.warthunder.com/post/81112/ru/?comment=298092

 

also

inscription on the gun: "Forward to defeat the enemy!"
original text: "Вперед на разгром врага!"

 

There are some interesting winter schemes in your original link, which you could do.

 

HTH

 

How did you add the photos? 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Doggy said:

How did you add the photos? 

right click on image.  Copy image location/URL.   Paste in reply.  Not all images now show when you do this though.

[Doggy]

22 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

right click on image.  Copy image location/URL.   Paste in reply.  Not all images now show when you do this though.

I'm going to try that.

Thanks.

[Doggy]

One more question. Do you think the squiggly lines continued around the front and possibly rear?

If this tank sat in trees I don't imagine they would paint the top?

 

Thanks.

[Troy Smith]

4 minutes ago, Doggy said:

One more question. Do you think the squiggly lines continued around the front and possibly rear?

If this tank sat in trees I don't imagine they would paint the top?

 

Thanks.

Up to your discretion.   It's rare to have enough documentation to pin down every detail.    As explained by @Das Abteilung the disruptive paints were usually field applied. as was much German camo.

The only reason I ended up commentating was a I was interested in finding example of camouflaged Soviet tanks, simply as I thought they would make more visually interesting models, and asked on Missing Lynx, and i was linked to galleries and images. 

 

Personally, I'd add the disruptive around all the sides, and to a lesser extent on top.    I'd recommend when the model is getting ready for paint, making a cuppa and sitting and having a good look at it, and thinking about how the crew would have applied the disruptive, try putting a scale figure next to the tank to get an idea of the logistics off painting the thing,  and got from there, this is the 'art' part in model making.   

I'm not sure what the instructions show,  a quick look just shows pretty much the profile,  try sketching a pattern on the instructions.     Note, I'm note sure the slogan would be on both sides of the barrel either. 

 

Hope it goes well, be great to see some photos when done, it looks like a very impressive model! 

 

cheers

T