Paint for Battle of Britain Bf109s

[VincentDucassou]

Good Evening Gentlemen, I'm planning on building an Aquarium with a Battle of Britain featurette above and in it. 

A 1/72 scale U Boat, Hurricanes fighting Stukas, Spitfires Vs 109s etc etc

 

 

I've narrowed down what squadrons I want to use, Jag 52, Gruppe I or II I believe and Jag 26 

 

On the English side I want No. 303 the polish squadron, 

 

What I wanted to ask was for the most famous opponents in terms of squadron numbers for Jag 52 and Jag 26, as well as for No. 303, as I want to portray semi historically accurate dogfights for my children, perhaps even assign small plaques on the Aquarium below the various dogfights. 

 

Also what are the best books or directories to find For information on the squadrons I've mentioned, for pilot information and more importantly historically accurate paint schemes for aircraft. 

 

 

I was thinking at least Including three of each squadrons, or for example if it was Jag 26 versus two or three different RAF squadrons then one of each etc 

 

 

I'm very new to this, I've been currently studying medieval England but it's terribly boring without Spitfires, guns and unifying enemies such as the Nazis. 

 

Cheers, Vincent 

 

 

 

, 

[JPuente54]

First to Brit Modeller, this is a great place ask questions, learn, and read what others have to say. Sadly, I do not know the answers to your questions; but, you will get a few people to answer or where you can find the answers. An aquarium as the center of your diorama/display; that is different and original. I recommend that you also go to the "New Member" section and say hello.

Joe

[Graham Boak]

I can't answer your specific aircraft question, but if you are looking for unifying enemies then the main example was the French.  It rather depends on the definition of "medieval", as this has been stretched nowadays to include what used to be called "the Dark Ages" which began with the primary enemy being the English!   After this there were the Danes/Vikings, then the Scots/Welsh, but after 1066 it became primarily the French.

 

[fishplanebeer]

Try the Bf109E-1 that features in a very recent post 'Bf 109E-1 Identity', it's the II/JG52 (5th staffel) example with the 'red devil' emblem shot down on the 12th August at Mays Farm. Not sure which RAF squadron shot it down but I'm sure someone will be able to confirm.

 

Re JG26 you have plenty of options including a certain Mr Galland 

 

Regards

Colin.

[FatFlyHalf]

One assumes that you chosen scale will be 1/72, otherwise the aquarium may need to be Olympic-sized to accommodate all you want  !

 

Note that Spitfire V's came along after the Battle of Britain, It was Spitfire 1's for the most part.  Similarly Hurricanes were Mk 1's.

Bf109E-1's would have been there, but mostly E-3's and E-4's.

Stukas were out of it generally quite early on (they were B's).

 

I cannot comment with any authority about the U-boat but would have thought it unlikely one would have been seen on the surface in the Channel in the time frame to be depicted. 

 

As far as the aircraft are concerned, pick your scale and then the kits, wisely.

As for colours, the RAF were very standardised - and this standard changed slowly during the campaign. 

The Luftwaffe had a standard scheme that was overlayed by interesting tactical markings (much use of yellow) and field modifications such as mottling. 

 

As background reading to the Battle, and a day-by-day account of how it progressed, I suggest reading 'The Narrow Margin' by Derek's Dempster and Wood.  (Make sure you get a good reprint as some are let down by poor editing and no proof reading).  

Or better still, ask for it at your library, a great source of information. 

 

From there you can plot your semi-historical diorama to include references to real over-the sea encounters.

 

Whatever you do, have fun researching, planning and building it.  Let us see the results.

FFH.

[alt-92]

1 hour ago, FatFlyHalf said:

I cannot comment with any authority about the U-boat but would have thought it unlikely one would have been seen on the surface in the Channel in the time frame to be depicted. 

Considering there were only 14 active subs deployed from September 1939 onwards, and most of them were more active between Scotland & Norway and in the Atlantic south of Ireland, I'd say you would be quite right. 
Besides, that first offensive petered out somewhat around the beginning of May 1940 - use of convoys and the need to resupply made them RTB, to prepare for the start of the Battle of the Atlantic with larger-scale deployments from June onwards, this time further out into the Atlantic.

 

Most of the threat to shipping close to Britain along the North Sea coast and the Channel was aircraft.  That is where the Stuka's come in though, so there is that

 

[Graham Boak]

For a generic approach, such as you suggest, then Bf.109s will be in RLM colours dark green 71/light grey-green 02 over light blue 65.  JG26 will provide an attractive option because this retained the earlier scheme where the light blue goes up the sides of the fuselage rather than the area between being mottled - something which tended to differ between the other JG.  Stukas, like all other types, will be in black green 70/dark green 71 over light blue 65, with the sides in the upper colours.  RAF fighters will be Dark Green and Dark Earth over Sky, with black spinners.  If you are interested in 303 Squadron them you will want Hurricanes not Spitfires.  I agree that the Stukas would have been withdrawn by the time 303 were involved.

 

I agree about the U-boat being unlikely but had assumed you wanted it submerged for the fish to swim around.  For the period one of the smaller U-boats would be more appropriate than the available kit(s).   An E-boat (S Boat in German terms) might be likelier for a surface action.  It is unfortunately too early for an RAF rescue boat.  Even in 1/72 this will be a very full tank/skyscape, so 1/144 would perhaps be better - I think that you are still ok for a U-boat but don't know about smaller craft.  Depending upon the size of your tank, you could perhaps have one fighter low down, near the front, and more 1/144 higher up, further back (in the corners?)  Perhaps a shot-down fighter in the water?

 

For a more recent account of the background see Stephen Bungay's The Most Dangerous Enemy.  I think this the best so far - although Narrow Margin is still pretty good.  For day-to-day accounts Francis K. Mason's The Battle of Britain is looking a bit dated, but Then and Now: The Battle of Britain is more up to date if more expensive.  There are also multi-volume accounts which I presume would be too much for your interest, but otherwise most of the accounts are superficial, riddled with propaganda (both sides) and plain errors, or over-specialised.

[alt-92]

Thinking about this presentation-wise:

Perhaps use the tank as a timeline from left to right? I.e. May Days/Dynamo, then Channel shipping raids, then BoB dogfights?

[Graham Boak]

I think the poor lad should tell us the size of his tank before we get carried away.  I think that the ship model testing tanks are either dismantled or unavailable for keeping fish.

[tempestfan]

As 303 became operational quite late in the Battle (31 August, if Wiki is correct), there may be a chance of "grey" 109s, which possibly would add variety - however I have no idea how far general consensus on this topic has advanced beyond Beaman.

A good read concerning one particular day (albeit before 303 became operational) is Alfred Price's "The hardest day", IMHO. 

[Rolls-Royce]

53 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

For a more recent account of the background see Stephen Barclay's The Most Dangerous Enemy.  I think this the best so far - although Narrow Margin is still pretty good.  For day-to-day accounts Francis K. Mason's The Battle of Britain is looking a bit dated, but Then and Now: The Battle of Britain is more up to date if more expensive.  There are also multi-volume accounts which I presume would be too much for your interest, but otherwise most of the accounts are superficial, riddled with propaganda (both sides) and plain errors, or over-specialised.

The Most Dangerous Enemy  is by Stephen Bungay, and I agree, it is an excellent book.

[Graham Boak]

Corrected, thanks.  

 

I did say "generic" - there is a lot of evidence for varied colour schemes on Bf.109s later in the Battle, including greys of various descriptions, but my logic was that unless you are modelling one of the better-documented examples it is best to stick to what is confirmed as being in widespread (near universal) use.  Besides the high blue sides of JG 26 wouldn't apply.

[VincentDucassou]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

For a generic approach, such as you suggest, then Bf.109s will be in RLM colours dark green 71/light grey-green 02 over light blue 65.  JG26 will provide an attractive option because this retained the earlier scheme where the light blue goes up the sides of the fuselage rather than the area between being mottled - something which tended to differ between the other JG.  Stukas, like all other types, will be in black green 70/dark green 71 over light blue 65, with the sides in the upper colours.  RAF fighters will be Dark Green and Dark Earth over Sky, with black spinners.  If you are interested in 303 Squadron them you will want Hurricanes not Spitfires.  I agree that the Stukas would have been withdrawn by the time 303 were involved.

 

I agree about the U-boat being unlikely but had assumed you wanted it submerged for the fish to swim around.  For the period one of the smaller U-boats would be more appropriate than the available kit(s).   An E-boat (S Boat in German terms) might be likelier for a surface action.  It is unfortunately too early for an RAF rescue boat.  Even in 1/72 this will be a very full tank/skyscape, so 1/144 would perhaps be better - I think that you are still ok for a U-boat but don't know about smaller craft.  Depending upon the size of your tank, you could perhaps have one fighter low down, near the front, and more 1/144 higher up, further back (in the corners?)  Perhaps a shot-down fighter in the water?

 

For a more recent account of the background see Stephen Bungay's The Most Dangerous Enemy.  I think this the best so far - although Narrow Margin is still pretty good.  For day-to-day accounts Francis K. Mason's The Battle of Britain is looking a bit dated, but Then and Now: The Battle of Britain is more up to date if more expensive.  There are also multi-volume accounts which I presume would be too much for your interest, but otherwise most of the accounts are superficial, riddled with propaganda (both sides) and plain errors, or over-specialised.

 

 

Thank you very much everyone, the Aquarium will encircle my Living room and be slightly built into the wall, so on the left wall and tank I'll have the battle of Britain, August era with some dogfights and maybe the White cliffs of dover painted on perhaps. The centre could be the hasty retreat of Dunkirk or perhaps a glimpse into Shipping raids as previously suggested. Then I'd like on the right tank the Mosquitos making attack runs on U Boats off the coast of France, A most secret squadron by Des Curtis is a book I'm sure many of you would enjoy reading. I do enjoy the idea of different scaled aircraft to replicate distance and backgrounds etc. 

 

I want to focus on No.303 Squadron, No.64 Squadron and any squadrons that had French aces, particularly any Basque born pilots however unlikely that may be. 

On the German side I want to focus on Jag 52, 26 and maybe include some other peculiar aircraft or participants. 

Hopefully within those books suggested and some ive recently ordered I may be able to find out roughly who fought who on each specific day.

 

Thank you for all your suggestions especially those regarding paint and books. I currently have two E3s in the progress of painting, I messed up the colours so I'll have to start again. I've got a couple Hurricanes and one E4 on the way in the post. I'll start with Two E3s in JAG52 I think, 2nd Staffel, Black 5 Helmut Bennemann and then Black 6. And then the E4 will most likely be a fighter being shot down by the No. 303 Hurricanes. 

I'm going to go to Hobbycraft today and buy a load of paints and equipment

 

I have been using this directory for the German side, hopefully it may help anyone else

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG52-I/pages/COD-CF-Bf-109E3-1.JG52-Black-5-Helmut-Bennemann-France-1940-V02.html

[VincentDucassou]

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG52-I/pages/COD-CF-Bf-109E3-1.JG52-Black-5-Helmut-Bennemann-France-1940-V02.html

 

I may as well ask as well, what exact paints should I use for this colour scheme. I have the Dunkelgrun and Hellblau. What else would I need?

Also, Im not a Nazi but where in the Uk would i be able to find 1/72 Swastikas, Airfix do not include them for good reason. 

It is easier for me to use Hobbycraft products at the moment, they stock Tamiya and Revell acrylics, if the suggestions could be narrowed down to those that would be much appreciated  

 

Cheers for the expert help Gentlemen!

[Graham Boak]

Specialist sheets including swastikas have been made by several producers in the past, and a search of (for example) Hannants catalogue should find some.  I think that Fantasy Print Shop may be another to try.  I suspect that there will be some source in France but cannot suggest any.

[Hook]

2 hours ago, VincentDucassou said:

I may as well ask as well, what exact paints should I use for this colour scheme. I have the Dunkelgrun and Hellblau. What else would I need?

RLM02 Grüngrau ("green gray") for the lighter shade of the upper camo, as well as the interiors of the landing gear wells, landing gear struts and the cockpit, RLM04 Gelb ("yellow") for the nose, rudder and other identifying markings (the underside wing tips were typical) and RLM70 Schwarzgrün ("black green") for the prop. Some BoB Emils featured instrument panels in RLM66 Schwarzgrau ("black grey"). 

 

HTH,

 

Andre

[Wulfman]

A good source of colour schemes for both sides is “Battle of Britain Their Finest Hour” Airframe Extra No.3 published by Valiant Wings Publishing.

 

Wulfman

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Wulfman said:

A good source of colour schemes for both sides is “Battle of Britain Their Finest Hour” Airframe Extra No.3 published by Valiant Wings Publishing.

 

Wulfman

Hmm... the dynamic duo of Richard Franks and Richard Caruana....  treat with caution.    Caruana does masses and masses of profile work, looks pretty. frequently inaccurate.  

 

@VincentDucassou Have a read of this

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/camo/bob/bob_camo.htm

 

It's quite old, but the author is a member, @tango98 and he did a lot of work on this, interviewing veterans, wrecks examination, RAF crash reports.   It's a good over view.

 

4 hours ago, VincentDucassou said:

 

I may as well ask as well, what exact paints should I use for this colour scheme.

looks to be standard BoB finish,  71/02 upper with 65 underside

 

note on the same main page, and the best source, photos of the subject

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, VincentDucassou said:

they stock Tamiya and Revell acrylics, if the suggestions could be narrowed down to those that would be much appreciated

RLM 02 - Revell 45

"Revell 45 is matched to RAL 7003 Moosgrau (Moss Grey) which is closest to 5 out of 6 samples of RLM 02 measured. "

see

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235072075-best-rlm-02/#elControls_3663656_menu

 

There are other in the Revell range which is matched to the German RAL paint standards,   but the subject of what matches what in model paint can be, rather fraught. 

I'm not sure of other Revell matches, but the source quoted for Revell 45 is a noted, and respected researcher.  I have a pot, and it looks good.  While often described as green-grey, it's an olive grey.

 

On 27/07/2021 at 18:30, VincentDucassou said:

What I wanted to ask was for the most famous opponents in terms of squadron numbers for Jag 52 and Jag 26, as well as for No. 303, as I want to portray semi historically accurate dogfights for my children, perhaps even assign small plaques on the Aquarium below the various dogfights. 

The BoB lasted from July until October, and RAF units got rotated in and out of 11 group, which bore the brunt of the fighting, depending on losses.  Also, the RAF in 11 group would intercept raids with 1 or 2 squadrons,  but that raid would often get intercepted in several encounters.   And, the point was to stop the bombers,  on occasion, the Luftwaffe did fighter only sweeps, which were ignored.  Keith Park, the 11 group commander, used his forces with care and precision,  there have been examples of wargamers doing realistic simulations of attacks, even with the benefit of hindsight, overall Park's decisions have been hard to better.

 

As has been mentioned,  there are plenty of books, going into more and more detail,  to the point of knowing exactly what units met

Some good recommendations,  if you want an idea of how detailed,  you may want a copy of The Hardest Day by Alfred Price,  can be picked up cheaply, eg https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/books/dr-alfred-price/hardest-day/9780099695301

 

One RAF unit that you may want too look at in more detail is 74 Squadron, as they were led by 'Sailor' Malan,  (who later wrote what became 'The Book'  the ten rules for air fighting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Rules_for_Air_Fighting  and were experimenting with non standard RAF formations early on.

 

From reading various books, and for a really good fairly modern overview Bungay's - Most Dangerous Enemy is hard to beat,  and despite "the Myth"  overall RAF Fighter Command was run by professionals who had prepared carefully for this,  and knew exactly what they were doing, and with a couple of exceptions*,  were never even close to being beaten,  The Luftwaffe were a powerful force, but muddled in what they were trying to do, and got a very nasty shock when they came up against what was the most formidable air defence system in the world.

 

* the exceptions, oddly, for an island, the British had at the time a very air sea rescue service, and too many RAF pilots were drowned, and the RAF  fighter tactics were rigid and didn't work, base around a tight vic of 3 aircraft (the Germans called this the idiot row) and got a lot of pre war professional pilots killed,  while the Luftwaffe had used the Spanish Civil war as a training ground,  and did have what became the standard fighter formations for all airforces, the  pair and 'finger four' 

 

RAF units that adapted to what worked, like 74 sq, were more successful,  but there are cases of RAF squadrons coming into 11 group, and being effectively ruined as a unit due to losses,  a successful 'bounce' of unit flying in the pre war fashion could lead to heavy losses.   Some units were so depleted they they then were withdrawn to regroup  and retrain. 

 

This is just a quick overview of what other books do in much greater detail.

4 hours ago, VincentDucassou said:

Then I'd like on the right tank the Mosquitos making attack runs on U Boats off the coast of France, A most secret squadron by Des Curtis is a book I'm sure many of you would enjoy reading.

This is getting pretty esoteric, as this is about 618 Sq, who were training to use the Mosquito 'highball' which was due to be used in the far east.   

They never saw action as the war ended. I'll @The wooksta V2.0 as he's interested in this

 

Mosquitos rarely got attack attack U-boats,   as by that stage of the war a u-boat with any sense was submerged. 

Anti shipping Mosquitoes are another subject, and you want to do some research on the Banff strike wing,   this is list of sorties

eg https://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/sorties.html  

 

Lots of modelling possibilities, Mosquitos, Beaufighters, RAF Mustang escorts etc

 

One final point,  the site search is not great,  but try adding 'Britmodeller' into a google search term,  as there have been many discussions on these subjects over the years.

 

HTH

[V Line]

Not quite on topic reference the original post but  I found 'RAF Fighter Squadrons In The Battle of Britain ' by Anthony Robinson to be an excellent read. The questions of tactics and leadership of Fighter Command and the experiences of eight Squadrons heavily engaged in the Battle are very well presented. Nothing on camouflage though!

 

 

[The wooksta V2.0]

Quote

Des Curtiss was with 618 sqn and was on detachment to 254(?) Sqn from late '43 with the Tse-tse Fly Mosquitoes and attacking U-boats in the Bay of Biscay. The detachment did have some successes and sank at least one U-boat and damaged several more.

 

Sadly the Paragon conversion is long OOP but the elderly Airfix kit isn workable with some upgrade work in the cockpit, a vacform canopy and some new wheels.

 

[fishplanebeer]

As Graham has previously mentioned JG26 were unusual in that they continued with the high demarcation line of the RLM65 blue sides after others had begun to apply various types of mottling. A good example is 'yellow 10' of 9/JG26 which is quite well known as there are quite a few pics of it after it was shot down on 31st August at Ulcombe. It's upper surfaces were RLM70 & 71 as opposed to the more familiar 71/02.

 

This aircraft along with Black 5 Helmut Bennemann of JG52 are both featured in the excellent series of 4 books by Eric Mombeek on the Jadgwaffe during the Battle of Britain but they are now getting quite hard/pricey to find.

 

As for other books it depends how much you are willing to spend and which edition you are able to find as the three most often referred to, 'Then & Now', 'Narrow Margin' and 'Battle Over Britain' have all been reprinted over the years. Personally I've tended to refer mainly to the 'Then & Now' even if my copy was published way back in 1980 although my 1990 edition of 'Battle Over Britain' is highly treasured for different reasons. The one I have is a limited edition issued via the RAF Museum with the signatures of 10 pilots from the battle so that will remain with me always.

 

Regards

Colin. 

[fishplanebeer]

 Another book worth considering is 'To Defeat The Few' published in 2020 which takes a fresh view of the Battle from the German's perspective as it was they who decided the various 'phases' of the battle, where as almost all other accounts are based upon our/the British interpretation of what we think they were and why. More of a tactical analysis as opposed to a detailed day by day account but well worth reading and one of the best books I've read on the subject.

 

I know you've now decided on the specific Bf109E's you intend to build but just to confirm that 'Red14' of II/JG52 was shot down by Spitfires from 610 squadron and 'Yellow 10' of 9/JG26 by P/O C. Gray of 54 squadron also in a Spitfire.

 

Regards

Colin.

[VincentDucassou]

17 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

 

I know you've now decided on the specific Bf109E's you intend to build but just to confirm that 'Red14' of II/JG52 was shot down by Spitfires from 610 squadron and 'Yellow 10' of 9/JG26 by P/O C. Gray of 54 squadron also in a Spitfire.

 

Regards

Colin.

That's perfect, exactly what I needed info wise, I'll have JG52 being chased by 610 squadron, now I just need to find out who No.303 shot down or flew against! Hopefully the hurricanes I ordered come tomorrow, I managed to get the paints I needed for the Emils I currently have. 

[fishplanebeer]

Just to add that Print Scale do a perfect decal sheet for your project as it is has all the relevant badges and code numbers for JG52 and I've just bought one myself for my 'Red 14' Bf109E-1 project. You just need to add the stencils which hopefully will be on the kit's decal sheet.

 

Regards

Colin.

[VincentDucassou]

Hi Gentleman, Once more I endeavour for help in this project of mine,  which has had some major improvements since we last conversed. My current machine is this E4 from 4.JG52, White Five. My question is, is this Hellblau or something else that the LuftWaffe would use during this time period? It appears to my eyes incredibly whiter/paler than the normal HellBlau, It could just be the Artists rendition or my bad eyesight yet it appears to almost blend in colour with the stark white found in the 5 and other white symbols on the machine. Is there a significantly whiter scheme or is my mind and the artist just playing tricks on me. Also if anyone knows or has anymore photos of this craft, I'm not too sure how the camouflage is portrayed on top of the wings. Cheers, Vincent.