Bf109E-1 Identity

[tango98]

Hi Jack,

I’ve been trying to reply to your message but the reply isn’t going through as the message reply feature is just

going round in circles!

If you’d care to email me at:   [email protected] I’ll send you my reply to your message.

 

Cheers

Dave

[tango98]

Hi again Jack. Sorted out now so you should be receiving my reply.

 

Cheers

Dave

[JackG]

Hello Dave, your pm just got through - maybe just some intermittent connection?   Thank you for responding.

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[FalkeEins]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:59 AM, JackG said:

 

 

I did find it interesting to discover how rough a going JG 52 experienced during that summer of 1940,  at least mostly their second and third gruppe.  

 on their first BoB sortie (Dover, Margate) on July 24, III Gruppe lost Kommandeur Hptm. Von Houwald shot down and killed ( a five-victory ace in Spain) as well as two Staffelkapitäne, Oblt Herbert Fermer (7. Staffel)  and Oblt Lothar Ehrlich (8. Staffel). Ehrlich was shot down by Colin Gray north of Margate. The replacement at the head of 7.Staffel was himself KIA the following day, while a certain Oblt. Günther Rall took over 8. Staffel. Replacement Kommandeur was Great War veteran Hptm. Alexander von Winterfeldt. 

[fishplanebeer]

Dave/Jack,

 

I have this book amongst my collection so was/is it by the same Mr Payne please or another author of the same name? I've just bought another book by a Michael Pane off Amazon entitled 'Messerschmitt Bf 109 into the Battle' which is a photo collection of aircraft up to and including the BoB so it will interesting to see if 3367 is featured in this one as well. I've sort of decided to go with 3367 as 'Red 14' with the red spinner but wondered if the devil emblem has ever been produced as a decal? 

 

By the way I did suggest to Hannants that it might be worth them producing a decal sheet of Luftwaffe fighter numbers and also bomber numbers & letters as these are always tricky to source when it comes to building a specific machine not covered by an existing decal sheet. I think both would go down well but they'd need to sell quite a few to make it worth their while so perhaps I should start some form of research amongst members to gauge interest?

 

Regards

Colin.

[FalkeEins]

 

there was only Michael Payne...a lovely gentleman. I was lucky enough to correspond with him and religiously collected/filed all his SAM/Aviation News features

[Chuck1945]

40 minutes ago, fishplanebeer said:

Dave/Jack,

…

 

By the way I did suggest to Hannants that it might be worth them producing a decal sheet of Luftwaffe fighter numbers and also bomber numbers & letters as these are always tricky to source when it comes to building a specific machine not covered by an existing decal sheet. I think both would go down well but they'd need to sell quite a few to make it worth their while so perhaps I should start some form of research amongst members to gauge interest?

 

Regards

Colin.

Fantasy Printshop did an extensive series of decal sheets for Luftwaffe fighter numbers, varying sizes, colors and outline colors

https://www.fantasyprintshop.co.uk/shop/?s=Luftwaffe+serials

[Graham Boak]

From a quick look, they do a lot of letters abut only black numbers in two sizes.  I still have Hisairdec sets of red/white/yellow but I keep finding blue ones I want to do....

[Vonbraun]

Aeromaster 48-582 has the marking your researching, available here https://www.ultracast.ca/AeroMaster-48-582-Bf-109E-Battle-of-Britain-p/am48582.htm

[JackG]

Kagero did publish a pamphlet or booklit if you will,  with decals in the three main scales.  Battle of Britain Part II has the devil emblem:

 

 

No numbers, but can also try search for the FCM sheet, supposedly they did markings for either 1/72 and 1/48.

 

Here's another - PRINTscale

http://www.printscale.org/product_12.html

 

regards,

Jack    

 

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

I'm after the emblem in 72nd scale and purely by chance have just found the very thing on Hannants as Print Scale so a sheet specific to JG52 with both black and red numbers. I'd searched under Luftwaffe and Bf109 previously (the obvious terms) and nothing came up so idly browsed Print Scale instead and stumbled across it. There are still 2 left in stock just in case you are also minded to build 3367.

 

Regards

Colin.

[JackG]

Discussed briefly on the side with @tango98, there is a possibility the 14 on the fuselage was a darker shade of red compared to the devil emblem.  

 

There is RLM 28 Weinrot - directly translates as wine red, but seems to be more popularly referred to as maroon in the western world.  Anyhow, references do indicate it was used for identification purposes by the Luftwaffe.

 

 

 

I'm leaning towards Panchromatic film,   simply because the devil has clearly defined red and black, and is not that similar in dark greys like you would have had it been ortho film.   Is it under exposure (or some similar anomaly) on the extreme right making the number appear black, most likely.   The difference is, it only requires an increase of about 15% darkness to shift RLM 28 towards black.  For RLM 23 ROT, it requires much more, at least 50% and this results in quite dark RLM 65 surfaces,  which does not reproduce what is in the photo.

 

 

Panchromatic sample darkened:

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

Edited July 25, 2021 by JackG

[fishplanebeer]

Jack,

 

The RLM65 by the number looks markedly darker to that around the devil emblem, probably due to a degree of under exposure therefore making the number itself also appear darker than it actually would in normal light. If you lighten the area around the number I suspect you end up with a dark red colour close to the RLM28 you suggest although quite how I'm going to replicate it is another matter so I may have to compromise and go with the red as produced on the Print Scale decal sheet. 

 

Regards

Colin.

[JackG]

Yes, unless we make our own decals (or paint over them) we are limited to what the market has available.

 

There is one new detail I  noticed that not many colour profiles capture, and that is a diagonal stencil line running from the lower corner of the canopy down to the access step on the port fuselage side.

 

It's illustrated here, and note how the deeper red tone of 14 , so it has been considered before:

 

 

Taking another look at the earlier posted photo for studying grey scales, that stencil line does look a bit lighter than the number "1".   So a comparison of the average pixel colour in the circled areas does confirm this:

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Nachtwulf]

My observations,  I don't know diddly about the colors. I do think that most of the holes in fuselage were made with and axe and or pick. Bullets or cannon shells usually don't make square holes, but I wasn't there so it's just my opinion which is essentially worthless. I had to write something.

 

Edit: Yeah, it made more sense when I  wrote it.  Upon further inspection it looks like some of the holes were made with a knife possibly from souvenir hunters?

[Merlin]

Hi,

using the view port oblique fwd, chap standing on wingroot, another over at hedge taking photo, sampling in photoshop the horizontal bar of the 4 then the same sample crawling ants moved across to the horiz bar of the cross left of centre, I get rgb 68 68 68 for the 4 and 93 93 93 for the cross, after doing filter>blur>average.

As 0 0 0 is black that puts the 4 a bit darker than the cross. !

 

any thoughts of it being red are unfounded, even allowing for a fade off of brightness the shot with the 1 and devil in, and the diagonal line, clearly the devil is a notable grey less on a greyscale.

 

also the sampling of the line is further proof. (well done JackG)

 

ITS BLACK 14.

 

I wouldnt be off saying red 14 started with Michael Payne, and how he had 14 as red we will never know (my 'hero' also)

 

Also Clint Mitchell says so in Iron Cross magazine (seen in WHSmith on June 14 ) , I dont recall the reasons. Can anyone quote what he says ? he also corrects myths on Bartells and Heinz Wolf.

 

Merlin

[fightersweep]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:24 AM, Vonbraun said:

 

Wings appear to match, note camouflage demarcation and smudging?  outboard of the cross.

 

Is that a piece of Bf-110 canopy that was thrown on for good measure? I've been trying to work out what it is.

[Milos Gazdic]

On 7/24/2021 at 4:20 AM, Vonbraun said:

Starboard view, the 14 appears lighter than the fuselage cross.

 

Hello Von Braun
If you have a Photoshop or any other editing software - you can pick the middle area of 1 where the tone is the darkest - readout is 80% of Black. while cross gives - 77% of black readout. I believe that even in this shot they are the same tone (the lighter top & bottom playing the game with our eyes. this lighter part can be dust from the forced landing or reflection). But that is only the tone of the B&W photo.

As Dave says there is an eyewitness who says 14 was red!

[TAG]

On 7/10/2022 at 9:32 AM, fightersweep said:

 

Is that a piece of Bf-110 canopy that was thrown on for good measure? I've been trying to work out what it is.

Sure looks wrong for an early E canopy, but alas no idea what it could actually be. A 110 canopy is a reasonable guess, I suppose.

 

Also, they've put the wings "on" backwards, that's actually the starboard wing in the foreground, you can tell cuz the leading edge slats are facing the wrong way.

[JacobT]

This is a still from a private home movie. The '14' is clearly black when compared to the red devil on the cowling. Furthermore, 5./JG 52 had ceased using red markings around mid-April 1940... No amount of checking shades in Photoshop will disprove these historical facts...

 

 

 

On 10/07/2022 at 15:05, Milos Gazdic said:

As Dave says there is an eyewitness who says 14 was red!

 

This particular eyewitness also stated that when he viewed Werner Bartels' aircraft it was sporting a full painted yellow rudder... It clearly didn't if it was shot down on 24 July 1940... No onsite reports at the time mention a yellow rudder and they would have mentioned this feature if it was there because this would have been the first aircraft to be seen having a yellow rudder... The official order to paint the tips of the rudders, wings and tail wasn't sent to units until 10 August 1940 and fully painted yellow rudders didn't start to appear until the last week of August 1940... The eyewitness accounts of this particular researcher are totally unreliable...