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RCAF Harvards - any RCAF builders here from Sask or AB? or just plane old RCAF experts?


Wm Blecky
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Avalon decals released their Harvard sheet which offers 2 RCAF options:

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From what I understand, Avalon is operated by a former (?) person from AZ models. So I am a unsure of the marking and paint scheme information offered, particularly for the Medicine Hat Harvard.  I am inclined to think that the paint scheme for the Saskatoon based Harvard is correct or pretty close (mainly with respect to the paint scheme).  In both cases, I have not been able to find images of these specific aircraft to confirm the accuracy.  Regarding the AB based Harvard, though I like the additional color of the Provincial crest on the fuselage, I do wonder if there have been any artistic liberties taken.

 

I am hoping that we might have a member or 2 here that might be able to confirm/correct these 2 particular Harvards.

 

TIA.

Edited by Wm Blecky
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Careful with the anti-glare panel on the camouflaged examples.  If it was applied it would be unusual and unnecessary.  2564 certainly didn't have it when photographed.  Also, the code letter D on 2564 should be rounded, not straight, style.  Is there a plan view?  If so, you can check to see if 2564 has B type roundels on the wing upper and yellow patches on the mainplanes and tailplanes.  

 

I tried googling 2564 for a picture, no soap.  I have one shot in my downloads but provenance is long since forgotten. 

 

I could find nothing on AJ733.

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1 hour ago, RJP said:

Careful with the anti-glare panel on the camouflaged examples.  If it was applied it would be unusual and unnecessary.  2564 certainly didn't have it when photographed.  Also, the code letter D on 2564 should be rounded, not straight, style.  Is there a plan view?  If so, you can check to see if 2564 has B type roundels on the wing upper and yellow patches on the mainplanes and tailplanes.  

 

I tried googling 2564 for a picture, no soap.  I have one shot in my downloads but provenance is long since forgotten. 

 

I could find nothing on AJ733.

 

Thanks RJP, much appreciated.  Like you, I had no luck with finding AJ733.  I did come across a so-so pic of 2564, but I certainly think that I would have missed out on the points you made here.  Again, much appreciated.

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Posted (edited)

I did find this picture from Harold A. Skaarup's web pages:

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(Library and Archives Canada Photo, MIKAN No. 4327574)

 

It's from the same training squadron in Saskatoon, but from 1940.  The caption for it reads as follows:

"Pilots T.S. Shaples, K. MacBain, R.S. McCloskey and D.F. MacDonald watch the sky while standing in front of a North American Harvard Mk. II at No. 4 Service Flying Training School, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, 4 Oct 1940."

 

 

 

Edited by Wm Blecky
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Avalon's profile caption for AJ733 doesn't appear to quite match the history as presented here:

http://www.rwrwalker.ca/RCAF_AJ686_AJ790_detailed.html

 

Also, aren't black stripes associated with target tugs or gunnery training (different school?).

 

VintageWings article has this image for "Medicine Hat-based North American Harvard II"

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/551/The-Ghosts-of-Southern-Alberta.aspx

 

MedicineHat3.jpg

 

regards,

Jack

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2 hours ago, JackG said:

Also, aren't black stripes associated with target tugs or gunnery training (different school?).

 

Thanks Jack, I appreciate your input.  As for the black stripes being associated with target tugs/gunnery schools, that has been my understanding as well (not that I am any sort of an expert!  LOL

 

This is why I thought I would ask about the accuracy of this sheet before I jump in and buy it.  I've heard of previous stories regarding the accuracy of markings with AZ's products (their 109Gs specifically).  Since the company producing this sheet is owned (?) by a former AZ associate, I thought it prudent to gather some information on the two sets of the markings that I was particularly interested in.

 

I did get this Kits-World sheet which I think will offer some useful bits:

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I should be able to supplement it with some Xtradecal or other sheets that offer suitable letters and or smaller numerals.

 

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Years back, I had come across this wonderful build of a Harvard Mk.IV by Geoff McDonell.  Granted, it Post War and does not have much to do with the decal sheet I originally inquired about but there is a lot of excellent information in that build which I think will be useful and applicable when building the Harvard kit.

 

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  • Wm Blecky changed the title to RCAF Harvards - any RCAF builders here from Sask or AB? or just plane old RCAF experts?

Greetings!

1.            To make a long story short, both of the Harvards in which you are interested are real aircraft but the depictions are quite inaccurate.

2.            I have a b/w photo of AJ733 and a colour one with what may be this aircraft in the middle distance. They were sent me some time ago by a Czech friend and were taken by a Czech trainee. I am not certain whether it would be totally ethical to splatter them over the Internet, but my calloused sense of ethics would allow me to send them directly to you.

3.            Incidentally, that Alberta coat of arms appears, as far as I can tell, to be a silhouette map of the province!

4.            I have had a good photo of 2564 for three or four decades now, and also would willingly pass it on.

5.            A few years ago I did a little photo essay on RCAF Camouflaged Harvards for the enjoyment of myself and a few of my friends. Far from comprehensive – 13 pages, 13 photos. Still, I don’t think anything else has been done on the subject although, of course, a fair number of potential additions have turned up in the meantime.

6.            Should you (or anybody else) be interested, simply PM me and I will shoot them off in due course.

Carl

 

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AFAIK, Avalon Decals is owned by @Jan Polc, who is a member here. Any question about his products can be directed to him.

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I would also seriously question the short 'Texan' style exhaust on both 2564's and AJ733's profile.  While my copy of Dave Fletcher's book on the Harvard is in storage (and thus I couldn't give you the exact date of the modification), Harvard II's - at least in Canada, sported the longer style exhaust as shown by Geoff McDonald's Harvard Mk.IV model  in Wm. Beckley's post.  Also, without Carl's photo in hand, I'd question the use of the diagonal black stripes on AJ733 for a trainer.  As Wm Beckley pointed out, the stripes were used on target tug or gunnery trainers, - not  trainers.

 

 

Scott

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For what it’s worth, the T-6/Harvard production/maintenance manual circa 1944 shows the anti-glare nose panel as a dark green, not black, and the prop as silver on the forward face but black on the aft face.

Max 

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Thanks Max.  I wonder if the RCAF Harvards deviated from that  anti-glare panel thing?  From the picture that I posted earlier in this thread, it appears that the upper surfaces were just camouflaged, even the area ahead of the windscreen.  From what I have found, many of the RCAF trainers were over yellow although I did come across a few pictures of silver ones.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/22/2021 at 9:31 AM, Scott Hemsley said:

I would also seriously question the short 'Texan' style exhaust on both 2564's and AJ733's profile.  While my copy of Dave Fletcher's book on the Harvard is in storage (and thus I couldn't give you the exact date of the modification), Harvard II's - at least in Canada, sported the longer style exhaust as shown by Geoff McDonald's Harvard Mk.IV model  in Wm. Beckley's post.  Also, without Carl's photo in hand, I'd question the use of the diagonal black stripes on AJ733 for a trainer.  As Wm Beckley pointed out, the stripes were used on target tug or gunnery trainers, - not  trainers.

 

 

Scott

Thanks Scott.  This is just another reason why I questioned this decal.  The exhaust pipe could just be the artist being lazy or not knowing the subject matter he/she was presenting.  I have not seen the instructions (if there are any for this decal) but if they exist, I would be curious to see them.

 

I have pretty much decided to pass on this sheet.  The inaccuracies and questionable paint and marking schemes presented for the two RCAF Harvards (which are what I was mainly interested in) make it undesirable.

 

That being said, I am sure that sometime in the future we will see those schemes applied to the Special Hobby Harvard kit. 

 

On 7/21/2021 at 4:44 PM, Carl V said:

Greetings!

1.            To make a long story short, both of the Harvards in which you are interested are real aircraft but the depictions are quite inaccurate.

2.            I have a b/w photo of AJ733 and a colour one with what may be this aircraft in the middle distance. They were sent me some time ago by a Czech friend and were taken by a Czech trainee. I am not certain whether it would be totally ethical to splatter them over the Internet, but my calloused sense of ethics would allow me to send them directly to you.

3.            Incidentally, that Alberta coat of arms appears, as far as I can tell, to be a silhouette map of the province!

4.            I have had a good photo of 2564 for three or four decades now, and also would willingly pass it on.

5.            A few years ago I did a little photo essay on RCAF Camouflaged Harvards for the enjoyment of myself and a few of my friends. Far from comprehensive – 13 pages, 13 photos. Still, I don’t think anything else has been done on the subject although, of course, a fair number of potential additions have turned up in the meantime.

6.            Should you (or anybody else) be interested, simply PM me and I will shoot them off in due course.

Carl

 

 

Thank you Carl.  I appreciate your reply and offer.  PM coming.

 

Wm. B

Edited by Wm Blecky
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Hi Carl,

 

I sent you a PM regarding the info you mentioned above.  Did you receive it?

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Hi, Wm. B.

I sent you an email with photos and a PDF on Saturday, to the address in your PM.  I resent it this afternoon.  I don't know if your equipment has devoured it or if it is still hurtling around in cyberspace.

Try sending another PM with your email address and I will have another try.

Carl

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All is good!  I contacted my provider and there was some "glitch" and they addressed it - that opened the floodgates and I had a boat load of emails.

 

Again, thank you so much Carl, I sincerely appreciate your help.

All is good!  I contacted my provider and there was some "glitch" and they addressed it - that opened the floodgates and I had a boat load of emails.

 

Again, thank you so much Carl, I sincerely appreciate your help.

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