Camo advice please

[Texans]

Hi y'all hope all ok 

 

I need the advice of modelers far better than myself to help with the camo on my below panther and Jagdpanther.  Question is  do you think the camo on Jagdpanther is too light or too much. Have seen pictures of the late war diagonal pattern but the red brown bands seem to look much darker than mine. Dark yellow ran out as well. No weathering done yet

 

 

 Thanks for looking 

 

[Pigpen]

I appreciate your dedication to self improvement but I'm off to stand in the "much worse modeller than you" corner.

 

Seriously if I'd sprayed that so well freehand I'd not be worrying about a few degrees of colour shade 😁

[Texans]

Thanks @Pigpen no need stand in a corner lol.   They look a lot lighter in daylight.    Will be using oil washes and pigments for first time on these so any tips before I trash a model greatly appreciated 

[Black Knight]

I reckon they look very good indeedy

In fact the Jagd looks just the way shadow and light falls on a vehicle or road surface through trees in summer.

[SafetyDad]

I agree with the comments posted above - your paintwork looks excellent.

I'm only a newbie armour enthusiast, but didn't the crews have the latitude to paint their own tanks?

And sometimes mix their paint (in the field) using petrol as the solvent?

Not exactly precision mixing...

Wouldn't that very likely account for any variations in colours?

I'm with @Pigpen here - you're being too hard on yourself.

Trash this model?  Errr, no. It's your model, made for your enjoyment - I'd be delighted if it was mine.

Deffo keep it 

 

Great job - looking forward to your weathering stage

 

SD

[IanC]

Looks spot on to me. Love that Panther. 

 

@SafetyDad I think both these vehicles would have been factory painted. 

[SafetyDad]

5 minutes ago, IanC said:

Looks spot on to me. Love that Panther. 

 

@SafetyDad I think both these vehicles would have been factory painted. 

 

Oh dear - you're right of course.

Looking for the 'hang my head in shame emoji'.

This is the best I can find

 

SD

[Bullbasket]

Bear in mind that any washes that you apply will darken it quite a bit.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

Factory painting is factory-dependent.  MNH were still turning out Panthers and JPs in overall Dunkelgelb right up to the factory's capture, for example, despite instructions to the contrary.  It is questionable IIRC whether it was ever implemented anywhere, but that is a continuing vociferous debate.  The use of unpainted red primer in lieu of rotbraun has been discredited by Thomas Jentz, reversing his older opinion.

 

Spray painting of camo is unlikely this late in the war.  While each vehicle was supposed to be issued with a kit, in reality only workshops had them - and then not enough for mass painting.  Vehicles were generaly individually painted by crews in patterns they felt appropriate, most usually by hand.  Such guidance as there was had advocated not more than 1/3 of the vehicle painted in any single colour.  Many were clearly deployed in overall dunkelgelb as there was no paint paste available.  Issuing the tank was more important than painting the tank, and there are stories of units turning up at MNH and just taking tanks.  These would have had no gun sights as they were fitted elsewhere, not at the factories.

 

Might I suggest that before you complete the painting you get rid of some of the more prominent mould and join lines, like those on the Panther barrel and mantlet.  And armour plate is very hard to scratch and gouge without significant impact, BTW.  Face hardened plate like the schurzen would snap rather than crumple or bend.  How are the spare links attached to the turret sides?  Panthers did not have spare link carriers on the turret sides.  Those links are about 30kg each, so you've added about a tonne to the turret, which would have compromised the balance and thus stressed the traverse gear.  Which is why they didn't carry them there.  Spare links also became increasingly rare later in the war as there were not enough to go round and lack of them was the cause of many tank abandonments for the want of a spare link or two.

[Texans]

Thanks for all the comments, have some revel weathering powders to try out. @Das Abteilung at this time spare tracks are not stuck  and the idea was taken from photos of earlier war panthers with the  added tracks to turret sides. Was attempting to give the look of a veteran tank who's highly experienced crew have  scavenged from the less fortunate to continue the fight. nothing stuck on yet just put in place to give overall appearance. 

[Kingsman]

A feasible idea but more common on less well protected Allied tanks than on German.  King Tiger did have spare link carriers on the sides of its more substantial turret, but only for 8 per side. But spare links were in short supply and with German forces pretty much always on the retreat after the Panther appeared in service most knocked-out and disabled tanks to scavenge quickly ended up in Allied hands.  KTs are rarely seen with them in their racks, for example.

 

You'd be more likely to see the engine deck stand-off armour as per the JP and perhaps the matching turret-top piece as air attack with an absent Luftwaffe was a more dangerous and ever-present threat than most Allied tanks.  Even 20 and 23mm cannon were lethal to engine decks and top armour when fired from an aircraft diving at 400mph.

 

Before you break out the pigments I suggest a filter or wash or two to "bring it all together" followed by some drybrushing and perhaps a bit of oil dot streaking/fading.  And don't forget some oil stains from some of the wheel hubs: they leaked.  Pigments will help you add dust and dirt effects but don't help you weather the basic vehicle finish or highlight and bring out shadows and details.

[Texans]

Thanks for the advice  have  attacked the barrel line  and may wrap in foliage camo.   Will be doing some  filters and washes to being out details  yeah, very nervous about the whole oil paint bit as never attempted before. Will have a go what's  worst that can happen 😬

this is one of my pics  used for track idea says April/ May 1945 

 

[Texans]

A few shots in the sun ☀️ 

 

 Barrel mold line removed  

 
looks better in natural light 

[IanC]

7 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

 

Oh dear - you're right of course.

Looking for the 'hang my head in shame emoji'.

This is the best I can find

 

SD

 

🙂

 

You may already be aware of Missing-Lynx.com,  but if not their Axis armour forum is a mine of information and includes lots on the various late-war factory camo schemes, and discussions thereof.

 

The Allied forum is great too. Apologies if you already knew. 

[Texans]

Thanks @IanC was not aware so will run along and take a look  

[Longbow]

Late war MNH Panthers came in stripes, and a variety of hard and soft edged stripes. 

These are all factory painted. 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Longbow

[Texans]

@Longbow thanks  very helpful photos and much happier with results in natural light. 
 

next phase will be decals and weathering 

[Kingsman]

And many photos of track links on the turret sides, so clearly it was more common than I believed.  The photo with the 2 Russian officers even appears to show mounting brackets.

 

For my own education, how can those tanks be identified as MNH-built?

[Longbow]

3 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

And many photos of track links on the turret sides, so clearly it was more common than I believed.  The photo with the 2 Russian officers even appears to show mounting brackets.

 

For my own education, how can those tanks be identified as MNH-built?

Hi, Peter...

 

Specifically, the camouflage. 

There have been a number of threads in Missing Lynx, concerning the striped camo used by MNH, especially once the flat-car mounted photo showed up. 
 

The photo of the ones knocked out in the first photo was also discussed at length, concerning the colors and pattern.
It is believed that the turret and hull roof were mono-colored, green.  

 

ATB....

 

Lee. 

[IanC]

4 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

And many photos of track links on the turret sides, so clearly it was more common than I believed.  The photo with the 2 Russian officers even appears to show mounting brackets.

 

Yes, very common as the Panther's side armour- turret and hull - was of course relatively thin and a major weakness in combat. Maybe of more help to crew morale than having any real protective effect..?

 

[Steben]

Looks great.

Your green and yellow look very pristine. The green is very good. Some shades of yellow were around (tools, bins, ....) although the ones on vehicles were less variable.

Bottom line: yellow is very forgiving.

One thing I always struggle with is the used brown.
You clearly use a really reddish brown, where "standard" RAL8017 is darker. This can go two ways: it is thinly sprayed, resulting in a more orangy colour like yours or a redder brown is used than RAL8017, ic primer red 8012.
The "thin" theory is unrealistic in such a regular pattern so the primer red is the one which is depicted here. The latter is a can of worms. Not saying it's wrong. I definitely prefer the less bright brown, I am very aware of that. It is just that hard evidence is unexistent and "reddish" relics usually are thinly, diversely sprayed.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Steben