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Bf 109-K4***FINISHED***


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Next up I will have a shot at this.

DSC05454

I believe this is a re-boxing of the old Heller kit released in about 1990. I will be doing it as a "Defence of the Reich" machine in late war colours I suspect - still researching that. When the Heller kit(s) came out  - I say kit(s) as Graham Boak mentioned 2 versions as I recall - it was considered pretty good though by now there may be some question as to how accurate it is and I have seen suggestions that either Hartmann never flew a K, or if he did it was not in the kit scheme.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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On 7/17/2021 at 3:40 PM, PeterB said:

I believe this is a re-boxing of the old Heller kit released in about 1990. I will be doing it as a "Defence of the Reich" machine in late war colours I suspect - still researching that. When the Heller kit(s) came out  - I say kit(s) as Graham Boak mentioned 2 versions as I recall - it was considered pretty good though by now there may be some question as to how accurate it is

Hi Pete and all,

 

Heller really had two versions of K-4. The first one was from mid/late 1970's and was more like a late G-6 or G-14 with tall tail, Erla-haube and strange whell bulges. It was a relative of their G-5/6 and shared it brother's problems. What it give was if I'm correct first time tall U2-tail and late canopy.

 

The second one was from early 1980's and best of the later generation '09s at that time. It had first time in 1/72 new streamlined cowling and outer gear doors, second time big wheel bulges - first was KP Avia C-199. . This time spinner was right side. I know a few gents who converted it to earlier Gs with earlier cowlings.

 

Accurate-wise I recall that wing was a millimeter or so too wide on the tip, removing it from the leading edge corrected at least mostly the too little arrow-angle, wheel wells were in wrong position and the fuselage cross section was too rounded behind the canopy. Surface detailing was of course raised lines at this time as standard fro Heller. A nice kit for the time!

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

Edited by AaCee26
Added location of the cross-section fault
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6 hours ago, PeterB said:

When the Heller kit(s) came out  - I say kit(s) as Graham Boak mentioned 2 versions as I recall -

Correct. some poorly researched G/K kit,  from when G and K were poorly understood.  Then a new tool into what is a decent K, which is what you have. 

This is an Airfix boxing of that.

EDIT much fuller write up from @AaCee26

Quote

it was considered pretty good though by now there may be some question as to how accurate it is and I have seen suggestions that either Hartmann never flew a K, or if he did it was not in the kit scheme.

AFAIK, he never flew a K, the last model he flew  was a Erla G-10 AFAIK

see

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/06/hartmanns-last-109s.html

 

see also

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/search/label/Erich Hartmann

 

49 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Why are the crosses green ? 

white cross on a green background.  It's not a great idea. :fraidnot:

 

 

@PeterB there are now quite a few documented K schemes, if you want any pointers, I can dig out some links.  I think i can find you ones that would work with the supplied decals (or near enough) as in K4's with the doppel winkel arrows...

 

HTH

 

 

 

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This is the K-4 I was thinking of with the double chevron

bf-109-k-4-wnr-334-schwarzer-doppelwinke

 

Not quite the same though,  I think it's the one on this sheet

IMG-5282.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc/k5nXyWYD/IMG-5282.jpg

 

 

 

More photos are in one of the JaPo books IIRC,   @SafetyDad can probably get to his.... 

 

worth a browse

https://www.asisbiz.com/Bf-109K.html

 

ah not the same as the Neubiberg one. Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-Stab-III.JG52-Ado

 

if you can find a white 4, this one from JG 4 with black/white/back RD band is neat subject

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-1.JG4-White-4-WNr

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-1.JG4-White-4-WNr

 

 you even have the werk nummer visible ;) 

 

better view of one with the RD band

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-III.JG4-taxing-Ge

 

I forgot there was a cowl emblem...well, on the one above at least..

 

But there are plenty more schemes in the link.   

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2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Interesting ? Why are the crosses green ? 

No idea - unless it was on a green RLM background and just a white outline cross but I agree with Troy - bad idea!

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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This should have been said soon but my server went down.  The Heller K you have was first released in the late 70s but the Airfix rebox was the 90s.  The original K was meant to have a late tail but it was attempted within the G tooling so was not high enough.  The later one isn't bad even now but the prop goes the wrong way around and the bulged cowl should be asymmetric - less protruding on the starboard side.  With a bit of tweaking it will look ok but not the kit of choice any more.  I thought that Hartmann did fly a K sometime but the markings are for a G.

 

The green (or grey) cross was an attempt to tone down the markings - but not as bright as that.  It was partway to the late war white outlines only.

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1 hour ago, PeterB said:

unless it was on a green RLM background and just a white outline cross

That is what I meant to post,  :doh:

I was getting carried away with image hunting for K-4 images,  'back when i were a lad'   they were very rare,  for those curious, pretty much every K photo was in this monograpah

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Monogram-Close-up/Messerschmitt-Bf-109K

and that's not that many.....

 

subsequently a lot more have come to light,  but as I remember well only having a limited amount to study,  new ones are still quite exciting to find...  

 

There is also a Flickr album here of 109 K-4 photos,  these are all MTT built, there are 1or 2 image of Erla built K-4s

Bf 109 K-4 Mtt

 

OK, there is another K-4 with a single >

Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. unknown "Schwarzer Winkel", Stab IV./JG 53, Bad Aibling, May 1945. Source: Tonelli auction.

 

Looks to on of those with a paler grey(?) upper surface colour, 

in the comments, 

Stab IV./JG 53

"That's certainly a Bf109K-4, only the K-4 used that camoflagepattern." 

 

Possibly, or theorised, that a very late war, use what paint we have of RLM 74 and RLM 77....     I'm trying to remember more on this one

this is another

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-2.KG(J)6-Black-12

Messerschmitt Bf 109K4 2.KG(J)6 Black 12 abandoned Prague Ruzyne 1945

 

I think there is more in on of JaPo books I can't get too.... 

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-abandoned-at-Schl

 

Note the consistent pattern on the 3 above, with the paler colour  round the cockpit 

 

 

colour images were things to dream of years ago...  then things like this turned up

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-Bodenwohr-Mappach

 

this is a B/W from the same plant IIRC

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-WNr-xxx199-final-

 

Messerschmitt Bf 109K4R3 9.JG3 White 8 WNr 332884 Gabi abandoned Germany April 1945

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4R3-9.JG3-White-8-W

 

I think the cowling on this is like the black > and Black 12 images....   it's hard to be definitive, but it's fascinating seeing what was done.

 

Hope of interest/inspiration for the build.

 

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Troy has given some sound information and supplied great pictures and links here.

It's well worth browsing Marc-Andre Haldimann's Flickr pages in the link above - some very interesting and inspiring pics and ideas.

 

Happy to browse through the JaPo books, but I would ask @PeterB to give me a pointer or two about his preferences - are you after a scheme with RVD bands? Or a specific unit? Or a particular combination of colours? (I would be drawn to the likes of 'Black 12' at Prague shown above, or the JG4 schemes with the Black/white/black bands and possibly a JG4 cowling badge).

 

SD

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14 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 The later one isn't bad even now but the prop goes the wrong way around and the bulged cowl should be asymmetric - less protruding on the starboard side.  With a bit of tweaking it will look ok but not the kit of choice any more.  I thought that Hartmann did fly a K sometime but the markings are for a G.

 

Hi Graham,

 

I seem to remember you mentioning the prop in another build but I am a little puzzled. All the pics indicate that the prop turned anti-clockwise when viewed from the front, like most if not all other DB powered 109's, and so does the one in the kit - is it the blade profiles you are talking about? Looks to me as if the profiles of the leading and trailing edges have been swapped over and that the leading edge should be straighter than the more curved trailing edge if you know what I mean -same on the Airfix G I am building, but I could be wrong about that - more research needed I guess.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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A couple of ideas for you @PeterB

 

This first one would carry forward the idea of the fuselage crosses infilled with green. Not the same green as on your decals though...

 

 

IMG_0211

 

Being contentious, I would venture that the colours here are Dark Green (83?), Light Grey 77 and 76, but hey-ho it's a certainly a light grey on the uppersurfaces.

 

Or this as previously highlighted by @Troy Smith:

 

IMG_0213

 

IMG_0212

 

IMG_0207

 

IMG_0214

 

(all from Messerschmidt Bf109K Vol 2 JaPo publications and offered here for the sole purpose of research and discussion - intentionally photographed with some distortion to discourage further reproduction.)

 

Unusually for a K you have a colour shot, also a late-war combination of light grey and green (again) and no mottling! 

 

HTH

 

SD

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I have a number of books covering the "Kurfurst" including both the Monogram Close up and a general one on 109's but in many cases they were written before the "exact" colours of RLM81/82/83 were fully established. For example in the 1979 "Close Up" Hitchcock describes 82 as "Dark Green" and 83 as "Light Green" whilst current thinking seems to be the other way round. Also, several of the books say that Hartmann's unit had a mix of G's and K's and at least 2 say he flew a K, so the jury is still out. I doubt I will be modelling his plane anyway as the nose "tulip" looks likely to be problematic. I have a couple of days before I have to make a decision as so far I have only painted the cockpit. I may do something using 81/83 or maybe a grey/green one. Then there is the matter of the so called "RLM84" which I have covered in my "Gustav" build thread.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Re prop rotation.  Now the Tour is over I've rather more spare time, so I've been digging in kit boxes but do not have a K with its original prop. The instruction sheet does show it correctly.  Digging further I have a Revell G-10 where the kit-supplied propeller is missing and another is present, and this does appear to be "Heller grey" plastic and going round correctly.  Therefore it seems most likely that it was the Revell kit that got it wrong.  My apologies: although it does seem that you were the only one who ever noticed.

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Hi all,

 

If I'm correct it was both Heller G and K having the prop with back side front and vice versa. So turning it so that the axel is in front wpuld correct this issue.

 

AModel once had a K which was basically an engraved Heller later K so it saves the engraving work if someone has it or gets it cheap. Of course it needs more cleaning than the Hellr kit, AModel had also some quarter a century ago an F which was pretty accurate but pretty crude at the same time. They later did a new one with all the alternative parts you ever could image but unfortunately the quality of the mouldings was no in par with the masters :o(

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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Hi Guys,

 

This is the prop on my old Heller K.

DSC05464-crop

Not sure about the actual blade profile as I suspect it is "reversed" but the direction of rotation is correct AFAIK.

 

Pete

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19 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Not sure about the actual blade profile as I suspect it is "reversed" but the direction of rotation is correct AFAIK.

 

I'm having a dim recollection this was discussed before.    The pic above it look like the blade at the left is the wrong way round compared to the other 2 , with the curved rear as the leading edge. 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4-Stab-III.JG27-WNr

51324231408_8cd3b7204d_b.jpg

 

 

Depending how it moulded, you may just be able to reverse the blade?  I'll @fightersweep as he's a big Heller fan and may have the details of the kits quirks.

 

HTH

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Thanks Troy,

 

The Heller kit has been replaced by the Airfix boxing so I am using it for spares - the spinner and intake went on my Italeri F!.

 

Pete

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@Troy Smith I think the recent Heller GB has earned me the Francophile modelling badge! Let it be said though that I do like Heller a lot!

 

Having just fished out one of my Heller K-4s (the proper K-4 not Heller's earlier Gustav pretend K-4) and found that the prop seems to match the direction of the photo you posted. The kit was one of the black box versions. Hope this helps (I'll post an image as soon as I get the chance)

 

Edit: One thing I don't quite like about the Heller K-4 prop assembly is the backplate of the spinner. I think it's a bit thick and gives the whole spinner a bulbous look. I made a thinner version from plastic card and that improved the look considerably.

 

Steve

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The cockpit is basic but adequate as very little will be visible.

DSC05458-crop

It came together pretty quickly with a minimum of filler.

DSC05468-crop

I think I have decided on a scheme so I will put the undercarriage on and make a start.

 

Pete

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I have got the basic camo on.

DSC05477-crop

RLM 75/83 uppers, RLM76 unders and the vertical tail in RLM 81. Now I just have to do a second coat of RLM 83 followed by a bit of mottle and a general dirtying of the fuselage sides in RLM 83 before adding the large green Defence of the Reich band.

 

Nearly forgot, here's a bit of background.

Like the Spitfire, the Bf 109 remained in production throughout WWII and was subject to continuous development, which was generally driven by the engine 😆. Both Daimler Benz and Rolls Royce managed to increase the power output of their engines considerably, but R-R had a couple of advantages – access to much higher octane petrol and also the Germans increasingly suffered from a reduced supply of the more exotic metals used in certain parts of very high performance engines. Comparing power output is not entirely straightforward as it depends on a number of factors including altitude, but in general terms the R-R Merlin and the DB600/601/605 series engines peaked at around 1400/1500HP, though DB started adding “boosters” such as MW50, a mix of 50% water and 50% methanol, and GM1 which injected Nitrous Oxide, both providing noticeable increases in power during combat, but they could only be used for short periods, perhaps only 10 minutes at a time, as they overstressed the engines. R-R preferred to rely on multi stage supercharging but again there were limits on how long the maximum boost could be used for. However, R-R had an ace up their sleeve – the Griffon engine which was more powerful than the Merlin but only slightly bigger, and that was producing over 2000HP by the end of the war.

 

As engine power increased, so did weight as the airframe had to be reinforced and maybe more fuel added as consumption was usually somewhat higher. Also, the bigger and heavier engines meant that the area of the vertical tail had to be increased, and in the case of the Bf-109, shortage of materials meant that some had redesigned wooden units. There were of course many other changes as well, such as repositioned undercarriage legs and bigger wheels/tyres, together with larger air intakes. Following the G-6 series, the next and supposedly last G version was the G-14, and it was intended that this would be replaced by the “improved” K version, but as this was late in entering service a number of “stop-gap” G-10's were built which were essentially G-6's with some of the features from the K incorporated or so I believe  -there seems to be some debate as to whether they were all new production or maybe in some cases existing G-6's converted after manufacture. Wiki say that the G-14 entered service in around July 1944 and 5500 were built compared with about 2600 G-10.

 

The main production version of the K was the K-4 which was essentially a G-6 with the modified "Erla-Haube" canopy and enlarged tail, together with the longer tailwheel and fitted with a DB 605/ASCM/DCM engine rated at 1550 HP, rising to 2000HP with MW 50 injection and with a built in armament of 2 x 15mm MG151 in the upper cowling and a 30mm MK 103 or MK 108 cannon firing through the spinner. It had, depending on which source you use, a top speed of 452 mph at 19685ft, presumably with the boost operating, which is about the same as the Griffon powered Spitfire XIV. The exact number of Bf 109-K's produced is not known as records are missing, but it seems to have been at least 2400.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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On 24/07/2021 at 19:35, PeterB said:

The main production version of the K was the K-4 which was essentially a G-6 with the modified "Erla-Haube" canopy and enlarged tail, together with the longer tailwheel and fitted with a DB 605/ASCM/DCM engine rated at 1550 HP, rising to 2000HP with MW 50 injection and with a built in armament of 2 x 15mm MG151 in the upper cowling and a 30mm MK 103 or MK 108 cannon firing through the spinner.

No. It was  not essentially a G-6, that's the point,  (a G-10 is basically a G-6 with added bits, which is why they could be converted to G-10s) the K had a load of airframe changes, internal and external,  the K identifiers are the moved and different shaped radio hatch and the swap in fuselage panels of the DF loop and fuel fillers,  a new instrument panel and starboard side to the cockpit.. as well as a load more, including a relocated compass. 

Some Airframes may have ended up with other engines apart from the DB605D,  but what was specified was the D.

 

On 24/07/2021 at 19:35, PeterB said:

It had, depending on which source you use, a top speed of 452 mph at 19685ft, presumably with the boost operating, which is about the same as the Griffon powered Spitfire XIV. The exact number of Bf 109-K's produced is not known as records are missing, but it seems to have been at least 2400.

That's a lot,.  AFAIK it was about 750.   I'll need to check that though.

Cheers

T

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You may well be correct Troy, the figure in Wiki did sound rather high. Anyway, basic dirtying up done - I will do a bit more once the decs are on.

DSC05489-crop

Next up the Green band.

 

Pete

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First batch of decs on.

DSC05498-crop

I am attempting to model the K-4 flown by the Adjutant of III/JG 27 in May 45 as shown in a number of photos and illustrations - the chevron should be more elongated and the vertical bar shorter but this is a close as I can get short of buying some more decs. It is not obvious on the above but the leading edge of he wing has a wavy demarkation as does the top of the fuselage, and the camo pattern on the wings is not quite a splinter though very similar but with "wobbly" edges.

 

In mid 1944 instructions were issued for the use of simplified outline only national markings, but this plane still had solid black and white crosses on the fuselage and under the wings a year later, albeit without the outer black border. The upper wing cross is not clear in the photos and could either be a white outline or a black and white one "greyed out" - I will go with a white outline one I think. The Swastika on the tail will also be black with white outline but on the Port side one of the "arms" appears to have been overpainted with RLM 81.

 

Pete

 

 

Edited by PeterB
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