Such a long shot, only a Brit might know this

[noelh]

Wow what a dumb question newby! Sorry couldn't resist but even the Americans here have to behave themselves otherwise the Brits will deploy their renowned tut tut, bad form old chap megaweapon. 

 

Great result though. I like the F84G and useful information has been gleaned. 

 

 

[72modeler]

16 hours ago, noelh said:

otherwise the Brits will deploy their renowned tut tut, bad form old chap megaweapon. 

 

Or the dreaded blurglecrucheon! 

Mike

[Thomas Bell]

On 7/19/2021 at 7:10 PM, noelh said:

Wow what a dumb question newby! Sorry couldn't resist but even the Americans here have to behave themselves otherwise the Brits will deploy their renowned tut tut, bad form old chap megaweapon. 

 

Great result though. I like the F84G and useful information has been gleaned. 

 

 

Just for the record, we've not been a British collection of colonies for two and a half centuries. So why is it that all a Brit has to do is shake his head disappointedly at us and we simply wilt and burst into tears of shame. Even I, with my big Texas ego, having worked for UK editors these past 20 years, will work days without sleep for pennies after a three word email from these Brits purely from fear of letting them down.

Oh, and when you ask for those pennies (actually, they all pay me in pounds sterling, which is great for them, awful for me) they suggest, but oh-so-politely, that you're just another money grubbing Yank.

If anyone cares, I'll post the odd and Byzantine way UK model magazine editors profit by not paying their writers. They like vanity articles where a guy just wants to see his masterpiece on slick pages and damn the money.

Gotta exclude Osprey. They pay little in book advances and expense money for research, no royalties, just a tiny lump sum (I think I made a whole £2,500 for my first title for them. For a year's work. But they pay on time. And when I got almost fatally ill, my editor at Osprey tore up the contract for the next book I owed them and said, "Keep the advance. You may need it." Publishers as rare and decent as that (her name was Charlie), there's nothing I wouldn't do for them. God bless Osprey.

They deserve more respect from professional (meaning academic) historians than they get. If you read their standard author's contract, you find their writers are held to standards for research and documentation as high as bigger academic history publishers and higher than most general non-fiction publishers.

My Canberra in Vietnam title was so overresearched for such a small book, I have an enormous photo archive of the Vietnam air war. Reams of declassified documents and piles of slides and prints, not one from official sources. These photos are a microcosm of the air war as it was, shot by the participants. And volumes of riveting oral history about, for example, coming out of flak traps with no avionics and a navigator in the back who only had a fourth of his bllood left when they miraculously made it back to Danang.

They should have punched out, but the pilot, a truly fine man, was sure his crewmate couldn't survive the shock, so on they flew.

A modelling angle: I got my finest builder and most awful writer to build a 1/48 replica of Yellowbird 22 after it had been shot to pieces. Everyone at Danang who had a camera that day took photos of this flying sieve, so we had about a hundred photos to model from. The result was so perfect I withheld it from the Brits and, after rewriting the build article, I sold it to FineScale dor him. I felt he deserved the 600-750% more than the Brits would have paid.

A sort-of-digression: These two crewmen are from a generation where PTSD was just something a man had to suck up and press on. Even though pilot Larry Mason spoke to me for hours, ever the career military man giving just the facts, sometimes his psych wounds showed through.

At one point he sent me a good colour photocopy with the recce photo of that day's target on one side (it was Tsepone, on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos. So notorious for flak was Tsepone there was a song about it).

On the other side of the recce pic, it was smeared end-to-end in blood. A shaky hand had scrawled in grease pencil: "Hit badly arm and leg. Losing blood." I was 10 when this happened, but every time I pull out that copy I shiver. Rsrely does a journalist or historian.  of war get so much thoroughly detailed information that he can confidently write the tale without doubts tugging at him.

One bomus from all this photo and eyewitness testimony was the cover painting. I was determined it would be dead accurate. So, having the coordinates for the flak trap, I went to Google maaps and zoomed in. Larry said excpt for the flak batteries it hadn't changed. When I sent Larry an advance proof of the cover art, he said, without irony, "After 40 years that painting gave me the shakes for the first rime. It's almost too real. It brought back all those rounds hitting the jet."

I did some discreet inquiry and learned that navigator Jere Joyner still has PTSD and though he had agreed to talk, I felt ot would be tabloid inethival to make him relive in detail the day he got 40-odd wounds.

Back to the model. I was hesitant to offer it to Larry Mason, for whom it was built. But he said he would be honored to have it. That riddled B-57B would be Larry's symbo,l not of his almost dying, but of that obsolete British design that gave him another while lifetime to live.

Brits are genetically wired to be masters at making simple do miraculous things. (The Mossie comes to mind, as does the astonishing mind of Barnes Wallace). Had Larry been flying a Phantom that day, they would have both died on the trail.

I'll end the evening's blithering with this: If you are researching a build of the B-57, all marks, or the Aussie version, give me a shout.

Fun fact: USAF Canberras used dive bombing and strafing almost exclusively, claiming the old warhorse was too primitive for accurate level bombing at altitude. The Aussies, whose Canberras were even more stripped down than ours, used high-altitude level bombing exclusively and in old aviator circles, the RAAF bombing accuracy is still told of in tones of reverence and awe.

They lost only two machines in their 7 years bombing SE Asia. One was believed hit by an outgoing ARVN howitzer round at 20,000 feet at night. What are the odds? There is that breathtaking and famous photo of a US Army C-7 Caribou on final, captured just as its tail section is shot away by US outgoing. Of course, none survived.

I covered a dirty war in Central America and numberless business jet and light plane crashes, not to mention four horrific airline disasters. It's ever a wonder to me that I've never been afraid to fly. I guess I just know how overwhelmingly good the odds are in my favor.

[Hook]

Thanks for that post!, and many  compliments for your Canberra volume, it is one of my favourite Osprey volumes.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[noelh]

Fascinating read. It seems to me that you have basis of a definitive book on Canberra ops in South East Asia. But from what you say it probably wouldn't pay enough to make it worth your while. 

 

I'd buy it though. But maybe you should write it as a novel. Like 'Flight of the Intruder'. If Hollywood got hold of it even better. Yes I know they'd ruin it but think of the fees! 

 

I agree with you about flying. I was never scared of flying, despite losing four friends in crashes plus a number of acquaintances. No I quit because I was bored of it. Perhaps lack of imagination is a good thing. 

 

 

 

 

[Sabrejet]

I can't vouch for others but the books I've had published were not put forward on the basis of, "not paying enough to make it worthwhile". The research was at my expense and I doubt I broke even on any of them.

 

However I do know of authors who try to maximise their earnings, often by using Wiki as their 'research' and nothing else. 

 

If we rely on the latter, we won't learn much.

[Thomas Bell]

On 8/3/2021 at 5:15 AM, noelh said:

Fascinating read. It seems to me that you have basis of a definitive book on Canberra ops in South East Asia. But from what you say it probably wouldn't pay enough to make it worth your while. 

 

I'd buy it though. But maybe you should write it as a novel. Like 'Flight of the Intruder'. If Hollywood got hold of it even better. Yes I know they'd ruin it but think of the fees! 

 

I agree with you about flying. I was never scared of flying, despite losing four friends in crashes plus a number of acquaintances. No I quit because I was bored of it. Perhaps lack of imagination is a good thing. 

 

 

 

 

I fear I came off a bit venal and greedy complaining about the I low and slow pay. Please understand, after leaving mainstream journalism, I picked aviation writing as a labor of love. I did so fully aware of its tiny remuneration. I don't write about aviation expecting to haul down a fortune. But I am a professional writer with no other source of income, so when magazines drag their feet paying me for articles they commissioned, I don't eat. I like money as much as rhe next bloke, but I like doing what I love even more.

[Thomas Bell]

On 7/16/2021 at 10:31 PM, f111guru said:

Thomas,

I too have had a life without social media but as with you came back with a limited viewing except for this site. Been here for sometime and give pointers and tips that may or may not help some one. Also a member of sorts to LSP and Zone5. LSP for research and zone5 less and less not much activity.

The F-84 I don't know much other than Cannon AFB had an F-84E serial no. 11027. If that is the real number. Also an F-84F at the back gate. Still there. The E model and some other aircraft disappeared after the Special Ops group came. This is a 6 position set from years ago of the gate guards

Pictures do say a thousand words. So if you can use these be my guest use them. May help in some way shape or form.

From your neighbor to the west if you still live in Texas.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

Ron: Thanks a bunch, though I''m tardy replying as usual. I just returned in earnest to the double build. The only one of my references on the fabled "Lieutenant Killer" are the fine cockpit photos in Donald Nijboer's essential book "Cockpits of the Cold War." Also found a forgotten box containing a resin set for the Tamiya kit complete with brass landing gear castings. That made my day. Tom

[Hook]

44 minutes ago, Thomas Bell said:

 I fear I came off a bit venal and greedy complaining about the I low and slow pay.

Not at all! I like my job, but I wouldn't do it for free either. 😎

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Thomas Bell]

On 7/19/2021 at 7:10 PM, noelh said:

Wow what a dumb question newby! Sorry couldn't resist but even the Americans here have to behave themselves otherwise the Brits will deploy their renowned tut tut, bad form old chap megaweapon. 

 

Great result though. I like the F84G and useful information has been gleaned. 

 

 

 

On 8/3/2021 at 5:15 AM, noelh said:

Fascinating read. It seems to me that you have basis of a definitive book on Canberra ops in South East Asia. But from what you say it probably wouldn't pay enough to make it worth your while. 

 

I'd buy it though. But maybe you should write it as a novel. Like 'Flight of the Intruder'. If Hollywood got hold of it even better. Yes I know they'd ruin it but think of the fees! 

 

I agree with you about flying. I was never scared of flying, despite losing four friends in crashes plus a number of acquaintances. No I quit because I was bored of it. Perhaps lack of imagination is a good thing. 

 

tstopthonkong of it. 

 

 

Sorry I missed these posts when they were fresh. Just want to say I'll write a proper history of them and their obsolete but tough mount, even if it's done gratis. I mean, the photos are here and the research is all but done.

I was so unhappy with the superficiality of the Osprey book I haven't looked at it since it was published 10 years ago.

Many of you would be gobsmacked at the incredible stories of combat, courage and survival that just would not fit the space.

I have promised myself just now at your book suggestion, and I can't stop thinking about it, that this is one project I'd be proud to do gratis.

 

BTW, a book called "The Doom Pussy," written by a radio correspondent during the VN War, was the only other oral histoy of US Canberras and inspired me to pitch Osprey. Why? Because her book is at least 50 percent fabricated, as was her sequel to it.

 

[noelh]

1 hour ago, Thomas Bell said:

I fear I came off a bit venal and greedy complaining about the I low and slow pay. Please understand, after leaving mainstream journalism, I picked aviation writing as a labor of love. I did so fully aware of its tiny remuneration. I don't write about aviation expecting to haul down a fortune. But I am a professional writer with no other source of income, so when magazines drag their feet paying me for articles they commissioned, I don't eat. I like money as much as rhe next bloke, but I like doing what I love even more.

I didn't see it that way. As it happens a sister is busy writing her first book. She isn't doing it for the money. But for the love of it. (She doesn't need the money in truth). She's friends with several authors who barely scrape a living despite writing relatively successful books. They sustain themselves by teaching creative writing and doing the rounds of the literary festivals.

 

Many creative vocations like acting and music have a similar profiles. The stars make the big money. Most just get by.

 

In truth I and I  think I can speak for many of us. We appreciate the writers who fill our aviation magazines with many remarkable stories. They definitely fed our enthusiasm.

[noelh]

Just  saw your newest post. Well if you do write it. You're guaranteed one sale. I have many books about the Vietnam war. I'm fascinated by it. I even went there on my honeymoon. 

 

These stories do need to be told.

[Thomas Bell]

I 

6 minutes ago, noelh said:

I didn't see it that way. As it happens a sister is busy writing her first book. She isn't doing it for the money. But for the love of it. (She doesn't need the money in truth). She's friends with several authors who barely scrape a living despite writing relatively successful books. They sustain themselves by teaching creative writing and doing the rounds of the literary festivals.

 

Many creative vocations like acting and music have a similar profiles. The stars make the big money. Most just get by.

 

In truth I and I  think I can speak for many of us. We appreciate the writers who fill our aviation magazines with many remarkable stories. They definitely fed our enthusiasm.

I was, for some reason, just reminded of an old magazine piece I did purely for love of the subject. It was in Aircraft Monthly about 2015 and concerned NASA's fascinating little fleet of WB-57Fs. These Canberra derivatives fly almost as high as NASA's U-2's and carry about twice the load of research gear. IAN ALLEN paid me a respectable fee, but I used it to buy plane fare to fly to Houston where the jets are based. At the time, both a/c were down to have their gear legs changed to F-15E legs. They truly are fascinating Frankenstein monsters. If you google byline T.E. Bell and NASA WB-57 you mighr find it. That is, assuming you're interested. They recently added a third bird to this fleet.

[Thomas Bell]

15 minutes ago, noelh said:

Just  saw your newest post. Well if you do write it. You're guaranteed one sale. I have many books about the Vietnam war. I'm fascinated by it. I even went there on my honeymoon. 

 

These stories do need to be told.

You are so right. The first things I learned researching the Osprey book was that the Canberras inp Vietnam were extremely hard to research in the media of the time and in military documents that were still secret. I obtained mission reports from the pilots in many cases.

The media ignored them because the B-57 was so unsexy compared to the other jets in that war. But hardest to dig up, the great majority of their missions were classified because their main target, the Ho Chi Minh Trail, snaked through countries we Americans were lying about bombing. I got lots of still secret documents uunder the table.

[noelh]

I would have thought the fact no less a personage the Chuck Yeager flew them in Vietnam might pique an interest? Also when it comes to the 'secret war'.  Books like  Air America and The Ravens blew the cover on that a while ago. As for the movie.......well it was fun watch.🤪

 

The more you tell us the more interesting it sounds.

 

'The last untold story of the secret air war in Vietnam'

 

I can just see that sentence in the blurb.

[canberra kid]

The RAAF Mk.20's did a fantastic job in SEA, but they were configured for level bombing where as the B.57B's weren't, they had no means of accurately delivering bombs strait and level. I'm un unashamedly biased  but for me the Canberra deserves far more credit for what it did in SEA, not just the bombers but in Tac Rec the RB.57E's were unsurpassed in the field. The B.57G should have been developed more, but it too much too soon, and listed not just by trying to introduce so much new kit but the limets imposed by the dead end of the J.65 engins. 

John

[Thomas Bell]

You bring up the very subjects that frustrated me (and still do) because of the limited format of this Osprey series. I got, for example, documents proving America's intention to concoct an0 years! excuse to base bombers in SVN. But that was too academic for a simple monograph.

The lack of useful or new info on the super secret RB57E unit was na) I couldn't find a single veteran of it who would talk and b) all the useful documentation on Patricia  Lynn remained classified. After 40 years!

The latter has nothing to do with protecting obsolete tech or tactics. It's just part of that silly culture of over-classifying for no logical reason. I've come up against this madness since journalism school.

And from what I have seen, this culture is maybe even worse in the UK. US open records laws are weighted toward the daylight and openness. However, the fight for release of old secrets can be long and involve big legal expenses. Oddly, as an investigative journalist, I have had an easier time with the CIA than the USAF.

2 hours ago, noelh said:

I didn't see it that way. As it happens a sister is busy writing her first book. She isn't doing it for the money. But for the love of it. (She doesn't need the money in truth). She's friends with several authors who barely scrape a living despite writing relatively successful books. They sustain themselves by teaching creative writing and doing the rounds of the literary festivals.

 

Many creative vocations like acting and music have a similar profiles. The stars make the big money. Most just get by.

 

In truth I and I  think I can speak for many of us. We appreciate the writers who fill our aviation magazines with many remarkable stories. They definitely fed our enthusiasm.

I was, for some reason, just reminded of an old magazine piece I did purely for love of the subject. It was in Aircraft Monthly about 2015 and concerned NASA's fascinating little fleet of WB-57Fs. These Canberra derivatives fly almost as high as NASA's U-2's and carry about twice the load of research gear. IAN ALLEN paid me a respectable fee, but I used it to buy plane fare to fly to Houston where the jets are based. At the time, both a/c were down to have their gear legs changed to F-15E legs. They truly are fascinating Frankenstein monsters. If you google byline T.E. Bell and NASA WB-57 you mighr find it. That is, assuming you're interested. They recently added a third bird to this fleet.

[noelh]

1 hour ago, Thomas Bell said:

You bring up the very subjects that frustrated me (and still do) because of the limited format of this Osprey series. I got, for example, documents proving America's intention to concoct an0 years! excuse to base bombers in SVN. But that was too academic for a simple monograph.

The lack of useful or new info on the super secret RB57E unit was na) I couldn't find a single veteran of it who would talk and b) all the useful documentation on Patricia  Lynn remained classified. After 40 years!

The latter has nothing to do with protecting obsolete tech or tactics. It's just part of that silly culture of over-classifying for no logical reason. I've come up against this madness since journalism school.

And from what I have seen, this culture is maybe even worse in the UK. US open records laws are weighted toward the daylight and openness. However, the fight for release of old secrets can be long and involve big legal expenses. Oddly, as an investigative journalist, I have had an easier time with the CIA than the USAF.

 

 I  suspect your repeat quote of mine was a cut and paste issue. So we'll ignore.

 

But  your  point is well made. Over-classifying for no logical reason by the military is endemic. I  even fell foul of it when a post of mine was deleted by an ex military  moderator on a civvie forum. Op Sec was the excuse. Yes I'm ex military (reservist) but it's exasperating. Yes I do have secrets which fall under the (our) Official Secrets Act. I could kill you etc.😀

 

I'll leave the  Brits to  comment on their  system. But I'm sure they have  no illusions.

 

Bluntly there's no excuse, it's history now. Let's tell the story.

 

Besides with all due  respect the  Canberra story is  niche. Hollywood will not  come a knocking. 

 

It's interesting that the cover up culture is so entrenched. It so much feeds the conspiracy nuts.

 

You definitely need to publish what you have  in some or other medium.

 

Absolutely fascinating.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by noelh

[Thomas Bell]

2 hours ago, noelh said:

 I  suspect your repeat quote of mine was a cut and paste issue. So we'll ignore.

 

But  your  point is well made. Over-classifying for no logical reason by the military is endemic. I  even fell foul of it when a post of mine was deleted by an ex military  moderator on a civvie forum. Op Sec was the excuse. Yes I'm ex military (reservist) but it's exasperating. Yes I do have secrets which fall under the (our) Official Secrets Act. I could kill you etc.😀

 

I'll leave the  Brits to  comment on their  system. But I'm sure they have  no illusions.

 

Bluntly there's no excuse, it's history now. Let's tell the story.

 

Besides with all due  respect the  Canberra story is  niche. Hollywood will not  come a knocking. 

 

It's interesting that the cover up culture is so entrenched. It so much feeds the conspiracy nuts.

 

You definitely need to publish what you have  in some or other medium.

 

Absolutely fascinating.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm doing all this on my phone and I am technology-dumb at best.

As you say, it's niche history in the extreme. But by pure coincidence -- my fascination with the Canberra in combat -- my research on that tiny book turned up evidence that supports the historians' belief that the US contrived events to justify invading S. Vietnam. I won't go into detail here. It's not about modeling and it's wordy. Suffice it to say I have a copy of the orders sending both B-57 squadrons to Bien Hoa from the Phillipines. And the orders to deploy that I have are dated a day or two BEFORE the Tonkin Gulf incident.

Also, someone very perceptive in this thread hit on two of my three big regrets about this little book. One was my failure to find documents or people who could talk about the RB-57E Patricia Lynn spooks. The second was the short shrift -- one chapter -- on the ugly but fascinating B-57G. I talked to many of their crews and learned that the G was never intended as more than a combat testbed for then-nascent technology. Like the LGB. Prior to the G, the backseater (in an F-4, usually) had to hand-hold the bulky laser designator and keep it on the target until impact. The B-57G fixed that.

Another failure of that book was beyond my control. My bigger, second chapter on the G in combat was cut to make room for the Aussies. My editor was from there and insisted on the change. I argued, and still believe, that they deserved their own full Osprey title. I lost the argument.

Anyhow, you guys have convinced me to pull out all my documents and photos so I can pitch a bigger and better book on a unique group of aviators in a bad war.

Oh, and as for Chuck Yeager, he did a tour as commander of this composite wing (two squadrons of Canberras and one of the rather pointless F-102 interceptor).

Yeager, a man who had lots if detractors, was up for a general's star. However, he had never held a combat command, which was a requirement. Thus the year with the B-57. I interviewed his crew chief who said Yeager's personal Canberra was buffed to a mirror finish almost daily because Yeager claimed the dust on the airframe cost him 2 or 3 knots airspeed.

[Buz]

Thomas

 

Not much to add to the chat - however something to bring a smile to your face. WB-57 photo taken Oct 2007 (Source own photo)

 

 

 

 

Picture of A84-241 after it landed with the nose wheel still up 11th Jul 1970 at Phan Rang (Source RAAF)

 

 

Buz

[Thomas Bell]

8 hours ago, noelh said:

I would have thought the fact no less a personage the Chuck Yeager flew them in Vietnam might pique an interest? Also when it comes to the 'secret war'.  Books like  Air America and The Ravens blew the cover on that a while ago. As for the movie.......well it was fun watch.🤪

 

The more you tell us the more interesting it sounds.

 

'The last untold story of the secret air war in Vietnam'

 

I can just see that sentence in the blurb.

Sorry, I missed part of your post earlier. In addition to what I said about Yeager in my last post, I should have mentioned that the B-57 crews had very little to say about him. He flew almost no combat in Vietnam. Of course, Yeager was not short of courage. His WW II record of kills and his escape after baling out over Germany alone would have been plenty by themselves.

I got the strong impression from the Canberra guys that Chuck had fighter pilot syndrome, like a couple of my best friends who just retired after a life in fighters.

You know how they are -- bomber drivers are just glorified truck drivers.

Those two B-57 squadrons flew up the flak and SAM-infested HCM Trail by day, and by night they hunted traffic on the rivers. At night, they flew up to N. Vietnam, which they called "flying into the mouth of the cat." They did this in a slow jet with no night flying aids whatsoever.

I know I've been on about this all day, but truly the men of the DOOM Pussy defined unsung valor. And I say this as one who votes the US version of Labour. I am no mindless war-loving jingo.

Tom

[canberra kid]

Further to Mr.Yager and the Canberra, a good friend of mine was a test pilot at Edwarbs AFB the same time as Chuck, he was a keen fisherman so he and my friend would often borrow a Canberra load it with food drink and fishing tackle for a weekend fishing trip, they both really enjoyed flying the Canbera. My friend was also an RB.57E driver in SEA, other than some photos and vague recollections of what he was up to I know very little of what they did and where.

John

[Hook]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:16 PM, Thomas Bell said:

That is, assuming you're interested

Who wouldn't be! - thanks for your post. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre