Such a long shot, only a Brit might know this

[Thomas Bell]

First the timid and patented T.E. Bell irrelevant qualifier: In the very unlikely event someone followed my posts, they'd know I have this compulsion to explain how after quitting all social media acfew years ago, I just recently chose to allow myself this one British modelling site and one in the US (LSP).

I could write an essay on British tradition for tolerance of arcane hobby passions and the support you gents give so freely to your fellow kodellers. I could make my case that American model forums are competitive and troll-infested. But I won't. At least, not now. Just know you are a kind lot and I will never return to US based model sites. And no, I've never personally suffered at their hands. Just seen too many other kodellers told discouraging things on the order of, "What dumb question, newby."

There now, to the point: Much to my surprised delight, I just returned to a rare double build 10 years abandoned. Two F-84G kits, 1/48, Revell and Tamiya. Always loved the straight wing versions of the type (F-84F is swept and only shares the ttpe designation for some long forgotten political or funding reason.

The Thunderjet was afflicted with every problem built into the first generation fighters, from a drag infested airframe design to the often fatally slow throttle response time of early jet engines. So I don't know why I love it.

Anyway, I have AM decal markings and masks for coporful F-84E's in Korea. But the kits are G's. The differences are. minimal, but the only one I know for sure is that I will have to fill an engine bypass door, about a hal-inch square, and molded open. Simple.

My plea to y'all (sorry. I'm from Texas.) is, were there other differences I need to address? Early E marks had a bubble canopy, though thesd failed catastrophically so often the had to be retrofitted with the heavily framed canopy of the F-84G. I have that mod covered as well.

Any ideas, my learned Brit blood brothers?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Im gonna stick a @72modeler, @VT Red Sox Fan, and @RidgeRunnerin here. Mike (72modeler) might have some answers ? If not one of these gentlemen might know who might be a good ?

[f111guru]

Thomas,

I too have had a life without social media but as with you came back with a limited viewing except for this site. Been here for sometime and give pointers and tips that may or may not help some one. Also a member of sorts to LSP and Zone5. LSP for research and zone5 less and less not much activity.

The F-84 I don't know much other than Cannon AFB had an F-84E serial no. 11027. If that is the real number. Also an F-84F at the back gate. Still there. The E model and some other aircraft disappeared after the Special Ops group came. This is a 6 position set from years ago of the gate guards

Pictures do say a thousand words. So if you can use these be my guest use them. May help in some way shape or form.

From your neighbor to the west if you still live in Texas.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

[Sabrejet]

Most obvious one I can think of is the air-refuelling probe door on the LH wing, inboard; F-84Es didn't have it.

 

I too have a fondness for the plank-wing F-84s: warts and all!

 

And welcome to the forum. I think we're a good bunch

[72modeler]

@f111guru Those are some nice F-84 photos! We used to have an F-84E or G on outdoor display here at Lackland AB, but they moved it to another museum several years ago, along with the F-84F Thunderstreak. When Kelly AB closed, some of the aircraft displayed outdoors were either moved to Lackland or went to other museums/air bases. A preserved E is pretty rare! FWIW, on the Forgotten Jets website, 51-1027 is listed as an F-84G-5, that served with the 27th FW, then the Turkish AF, then back to the U.S. and currently preserved at Cannon AB, NM.

 

@Thomas Bell

Welcome to BM! I am a fellow Texan, and we have several other modelers from the Lone Star State that are regular contributors. This is the very best website for aviation and modeling knowledge, as well as positive feedback, modeling techniques, and freely shared references and resources. Now, on to your query about the differences between the E and the G, see the details I found in both volumes of the Squadron F-84 Thunderjet In Action.

Compared to the E, the differences in the G were:

• uprated engine (J-35A-29) no external difference
• flying boom IFR receptacle in the upper LH wing leading edge replaced probe and drogue fittings in the tip tanks
• nuclear store could be carried on a special pylon on the inboard LH wing
• reinforcement straps fitted to canopy (also retofitted to some F-84E's)
• beginning with the F-84G-10 the slotted speed brake  was replaced with one that had holes
• blow-in doors for auxiliary air flow added to both sides of the nose low down on the fuselage

Pretty easy to convert an E into a G and vice-versa; I'm not all that familiar with the 1/48 kits, but depending upon how the canopies were molded, it might be a pain to remove the reinforcements and polish out the plastic; if you found a photo of an F-84E that was retrofitted with the reinforced canopy, that might make the job easier, depending on whether or not it had the markings you wanted. IIRC, Revell did a 1/48 F-84E that had both canopies and both speed brakes. I think it was engineered so that an E or G could be made from the kit, but I don't have a 1/48 kit to confirm.

 

Hope this helps!

Mike

 

 

[James S.]

18 hours ago, f111guru said:

Thomas,

I too have had a life without social media but as with you came back with a limited viewing except for this site. Been here for sometime and give pointers and tips that may or may not help some one. Also a member of sorts to LSP and Zone5. LSP for research and zone5 less and less not much activity.

The F-84 I don't know much other than Cannon AFB had an F-84E serial no. 11027. If that is the real number. Also an F-84F at the back gate. Still there. The E model and some other aircraft disappeared after the Special Ops group came. This is a 6 position set from years ago of the gate guards

Pictures do say a thousand words. So if you can use these be my guest use them. May help in some way shape or form.

From your neighbor to the west if you still live in Texas.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

Awesome photos my friend. Thank you so much for sharing. The F-84 is one of my favorite aircraft. My late wife and I would would drive to Albuquerque from San Antonio to see Iron Maiden. We loved New Mexico. Your neighbor to the east in San Antonio, TX.

 

James Sontag

[stevehnz]

14 hours ago, 72modeler said:

uprated engine (J-35A-29) no external difference

I seem to recall reading that one of them had a slightly longer tail pipe, maybe the -G but can't be sure?

Steve.

[72modeler]

11 hours ago, stevehnz said:

I seem to recall reading that one of them had a slightly longer tail pipe, maybe the -G but can't be sure?

I read something about that too, Steve, but for the life of me, I don't see it. Drawings all show the same talpipe for the E and G, but those are drawings. not actual photos. Guess I will go through my photo references to see what I can find. Get back to you when/if I do! (If so, wonder why- as the uprated engine was the same size as the old one- maybe the tailpipe was extended and 'ratted' for more thrust?)

Mike

 

Be sure to include the microswitch that was said to be installed on the nose gear strut  that detected the gravel overrun of the runway on  takeoff so the pilot would know when to pull the ground-loving hog off! 

[Seawinder]

FWIW, the Revell F-84E kit supplies both plain and reinforced canopies, but it only has blank panels for the blow-in areas and the shorter exhaust. From what I read, their -G kit has the appropriate pieces, but only for a -G.

[Hook]

14 hours ago, stevehnz said:

I seem to recall reading that one of them had a slightly longer tail pipe, maybe the -G but can't be sure?

For what it's worth, Academy's nice little 1/72nd  F-84E/G kit has seperate aft fuselage parts for the E and G, the E parts being slightly longer.

 

My references give lenghts of 38 feet 7 inches for the E, and 38 feet 1 inches for the G.

 

While on the subject, one of the best books on the Thunderjet In have (albeit in Dutch and mainly concerned with Dutch use) is Republic F-84 E/G Thunderjet In Nederland by Hub Groeneveld.

HTH!,

 

Andre 

 

[stevehnz]

I meant to check this out in my Detail & Scale book on these last night but you know how it is after a stressful 12 hour day, a couple of Hazy Pale Ales, a feed & amnesia set in. Maybe I can do better tonight.  

Steve 

[Sabrejet]

Comparison shot: F-84D (same as F-84E) at top; F-84G below. Note that the rudder meets the aft extremity of the jet pipe on the F-84G but there is a noticeable step on the F-84D (E).

 

 

[VT Red Sox Fan]

Honored to have been asked, but my knowledge of the F-84 program is limited--but, in addition to @72modeler & @RidgeRunner, I find @Sabrejet is always a cash money start for USAF aircraft of this era--I will probably be begging him for F-86 advice soon 🙌--Best, Erwin 

Edited July 18, 2021 by VT Red Sox Fan
grammer

[RidgeRunner]

Sorry, I wish I could help but my knowledge of the straightening F-84 is scant.

 

Msrtin

[Alex Gordon]

@Vingtor might be your friend here,this PDF is on his website http://vingtor.net/downloads/VMC-1.pdf .

[72modeler]

@Sabrejet Duncan.

 

Looking at the two F-84 photos you posted, it looks like the G had a shorter tailpipe and it appears to be smaller in diameter than that of the F-84D photo you posted. The smaller diameter tailpipe would give a small increase in thrust, much like 'ratting' the tailpipes on F-86's in Korea. My best friend's Dad was a Sabre crew chief with the 4th FG in Korea, and WW2 4th FG Mustang ace Vermont Garrison's Sabre was one he worked on. He said 'ratting' the tailpipes by cutting and bending tabs inwards gave a slight increase in thrust; he said many of the honchos had this done to their mounts. Speed is life, I guess. See the linked article that explains the 'rats' on Korean War Sabres and how they worked.

Mike

 

https://www.historynet.com/saberjet-secrets.htm

Edited July 19, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Sabrejet]

Just to clarify the use of 'rats', this is G-SABRE/N8178 with rats fitted on the lower part of the jet pipe. Rats which were not in use were stowed on the outside of the jet pipe opening. As alluded to above, early versions were simple bent 'tabs' but not very robust.

 

 

Back on-topic...

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sabrejet

[Sabrejet]

Though it's taken from an F-84E 'whoopsie', this shows the Republic version of 'rats' fitted into the jet pipe. These curved versions are a bit more elegant I think.

 

 

[Giorgio N]

The auxiliary blow-in doors on the front fuselage were not present from the start on the G but were introduced during production. I've often seen reference to aircraft in Block 20 being the first with these doors, however other documents state that the modification was introduced with serial number 51-1067 in Block 10.  You can see here that 51-1065 did not have the door:

 

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Upcoming/Photos.aspx?igphoto=2000544586

 

However... I have a picture of 51-1066 with the blow-in doors,.. so it could be that the first was actually 51-1066 or this was one of the aircraft on wich the blow-in doors were retrofitted. As the picture I have shows the aircraft in service in Turkey, this would have been taken later in her career. And then I have a picture of 51-1077 without blow-in doors!

And more... most pictures of aircraft from Block 11 do not show the doors, meaning that most likely this block did not have them, see for example 51-9997 here in Belgian service:

 

https://www.belgian-wings.be/republic-f-84g-thunderjet-part-2/fz-48

 

And then, from the same website, here's 51-10238 from the same Block 11, here with blow-in doors...

 

https://www.belgian-wings.be/republic-f-84g-thunderjet-part-2/fz-70

 

And pictures of 51-10071 and -10074 do show them too, that could mean that they were introduced at some point during the production of Block-11 aircraft

 

So really it's a matter of selecting an aircraft and trying to get as much reference on this aircraft as possible, at least for blocks 10 and 11 when some aircraft show them and some don't. Aircraft from block 20 on seem to all have the doors, block 5 and lower don't.. but I can't tell if none were retrofitted at some point.

 

 

 

 

[RidgeRunner]

I knew "an Italian would know this" ;). 

 

Martin

[Sabrejet]

Incidentally, for NAA the term for the jet pipe segments was 'mice', and I can see how it may have derived from the look of the Republic versions.

[RidgeRunner]

9 hours ago, 72modeler said:

He said 'ratting' the tailpipes by cutting and bending tabs inwards gave a slight increase in thrust; he said many of the honchos had this done to their mounts. Speed is life, I guess.

Maybe Mike, but not on a modern jet! They are far more delicate!  https://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=207654. I followed this incident on FC last week. It kept the ground crew busy on FOD patrol!

 

Martin

 

 

[Sabrejet]

In case it's of help, this is a close-up of the blow-in door (RH side):

 

 

And also a close-up of the canopy reinforcements, applied to the outer surface and made from pre-cured fibreglass strip.

 

 

[72modeler]

On 7/19/2021 at 3:39 AM, RidgeRunner said:

They are far more delicate!

Wow! Looks like the tailpipe blew apart! That's why manly men's jets don't have those ugly turkey feathers, Martin Ha!

Mike

Edited July 20, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Thomas Bell]

Wow! You guys just proved what I said about BM members. I've made progress since posting, but not enough to photograph.

My Revell kit of the G does indeed have both canopy types, but the little sprue with the panels molded with the doors is for a G only. The doors are molded open, which they would be only if the engine was running and higher than idle.

Fortunately, I found an Eduard PE fret with covers for the blow-by doors. Though I can't find all my F-84 books, I'm balls deep in AM sets.

More to come.

Oh, a chronicle of my silliness some of you might recognize. I posted at length about my not so happy time as a modeling writer and editor, concluding that the huge hoard of product samples from aftermarket firms and kit makers is sometimes a blessing, often a curse.

But there's no doubt I have detail goodies I could never have bought on frreelance income (I swore never to return to mainstream journalism even if I went hungry. I'm going to finish this novel and these plays before I drop dead, I swear.)

Anyway, this twin F-84E/G build sent me off through my AM boxes for the first time in 2 years.

One such box is a double cigar box overflowing with AM guns (mostly barrels and cooling jackets). Most are from Master, whose parts are, I'm convinced, made by forest fairies, so jewel like are they.

Found a smalll hoard of Japanese guns and brass pitot tubes, and other tiny goodies I have no memory of.

The point? It just occurred to me that all these AM bits are in two categories: So exquisite I can't bring myself to use them, or for a/c types I will never, ever build.

I wish you guys would email me your wants or build needs so these thousands of pounds/dollars worth of stuff won't be tossed out when they find me dead at the keyboard.

Just send me your anticipated builds. I will tell you if I have goodies for it. Include the scale.

Just found a gorgeous F-84E 1/32 decal sheet from Zotz, my favorite decal firm. I stupidly gave away the kit. It has multinational schemes. Sigh.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Thomas Bell
No good reason.